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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don't think the tension between China and India will die down anytime soon, as much as we all would like to see some sort of modus vivendi between the two countries. The realities of geopolitics and the acute competition between China and the U.S. is going to make Indian elites take advantage of this opportunity for their own benefit to bridge the gap of power that has increasingly been tilting to China's advantage. The level of disparity and gap of power between these two Asian giants is one of the key reasons animating India from forging an alliance of convenience with the U.S. as we can see with their participation with QUAD and other U.S. led arrangements that are designed to stop China's dominance in the Asia-Pacific region.

Manoj Joshi, one of Indias prominent academic/journalist has just released a book this month discussing the pertinent issue of the disputed border between China and India. His book is titled:

 Understanding the India-China Border: The Enduring Threat of War in High Himalaya, Manoj Joshi (Hurst, June 2022)


On this book he argues that as China's growing power increases over India, China grows more assertive with respect to how it sees the border issue with India. He writes the following:

The Himalayan border disputes are less a cause of a potential conflict than a symptom of the shifting balance of power in the Indo-Pacific. Joshi notes that when China and India viewed each other as equals in the immediate post-Cold War world, the border disputes seemed less important. But as China’s economic and military rise significantly outpaced India’s, Beijing’s border diplomacy became more demanding, and China became more assertive in the Indian Ocean littoral by moving to encircle India with the so-called “string of pearls” port facilities. India sought ways to redress its growing imbalance with China, turning to the United States, Japan, and Australia at the same time that the Trump administration took a more confrontational approach to China. Joshi explains:


"As mutuality of interests developed in New Delhi and Washington in balancing China … as the gap between India’s economy and its military capacity and that of China has widened, India has begun to lean harder on the United States."

He even expressed on his most recent guesting on this youtube video that if China were to conduct it's operation in Taiwan, it could potentially participate in the blocking of the Malacca strait with the U.S. seemingly unaware that such action will be interpreted or even be use as a caucus belli for War by China against India.


Both India and China may truly want peace with each other but geopolitics the way it is simply makes it impossible for these two countries to forge some sort of relationship that's truly beneficial for the entire region. India, has it's own preeminent ambition seeing itself as the paramount power within her hemisphere while China hemmed by the natural boundaries of hostile countries and a wayward rebellious territory (Taiwan) feels constrained from exercising it's growing and increasing economic power along with it her military power. And since Chinese leaders are astute students of history, they remember China being attacked and easily beaten at the sea by two of the greatest military naval power in history: Britain during the Opium Wars, and Japan during the Sino-Japanese War losing the island of Taiwan, along with the disputed island of Diayao or Senkaku to the Japanese. A bitter lesson that's been etched to the entire CPC/PLA psyche to never again let that kind of humiliation to happen again. China and India will clash sometime in the future in order for these two countries to accept their pecking order in the hierarchy of power and order, maybe only then shall one accept it's fate or not. We will find out perhaps in the coming years.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
I work at Indian pharma. My supervisors were talking about how India lost its security council permanent seat to China because Nehru gifted that seat to China. .
I didnt expected people to talk about these things in office but lol. May be my supervisors are DFI mods.
Man, good luck...how could India "Gifted" China the UN permanent seat when it's not theirs to give in the 1st place. Most importantly, India wasn't an independent country when the creation of the UN was established with China as one of it's Founding members as the result of it's massive contribution in defeating Imperial Japan in WWII, whereas India was famined by Churchill due to his policies of ensuring his country have the food and other needs at the expense of Indians and the Bengals who lost their lives by the millions from famine.

How the F did the Indians gifted the PRC the UN permanent seat when it finally gained the UN permanent seat along with it the Security Council membership when then Republic of China (Taiwan) was kicked out from the U.N. as a recognized entity that controls all of China back in 1971. Nehru died in 1964. Are the Indians that delusional?
 
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tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I don't think the tension between China and India will die down anytime soon, as much as we all would like to see some sort of modus vivendi between the two countries. The realities of geopolitics and the acute competition between China and the U.S. is going to make Indian elites take advantage of this opportunity for their own benefit to bridge the gap of power that has increasingly been tilting to China's advantage. The level of disparity and gap of power between these two Asian giants is one of the key reasons animating India from forging an alliance of convenience with the U.S. as we can see with their participation with QUAD and other U.S. led arrangements that are designed to stop China's dominance in the Asia-Pacific region.

Manoj Joshi, one of Indias prominent academic/journalist has just released a book this month discussing the pertinent issue of the disputed border between China and India. His book is titled:

 Understanding the India-China Border: The Enduring Threat of War in High Himalaya, Manoj Joshi (Hurst, June 2022)


On this book he argues that as China's growing power increases over India, China grows more assertive with respect to how it sees the border issue with India. He writes the following:

The Himalayan border disputes are less a cause of a potential conflict than a symptom of the shifting balance of power in the Indo-Pacific. Joshi notes that when China and India viewed each other as equals in the immediate post-Cold War world, the border disputes seemed less important. But as China’s economic and military rise significantly outpaced India’s, Beijing’s border diplomacy became more demanding, and China became more assertive in the Indian Ocean littoral by moving to encircle India with the so-called “string of pearls” port facilities. India sought ways to redress its growing imbalance with China, turning to the United States, Japan, and Australia at the same time that the Trump administration took a more confrontational approach to China. Joshi explains:


"As mutuality of interests developed in New Delhi and Washington in balancing China … as the gap between India’s economy and its military capacity and that of China has widened, India has begun to lean harder on the United States."

He even expressed on his most recent guesting on this youtube video that if China were to conduct it's operation in Taiwan, it could potentially participate in the blocking of the Malacca strait with the U.S. seemingly unaware that such action will be interpreted or even be use as a caucus belli for War by China against India.


Both India and China may truly want peace with each other but geopolitics the way it is simply makes it impossible for these two countries to forge some sort of relationship that's truly beneficial for the entire region. India, has it's own preeminent ambition seeing itself as the paramount power within her hemisphere while China hemmed by the natural boundaries of hostile countries and a wayward rebellious territory (Taiwan) feels constrained from exercising it's growing and increasing economic power along with it her military power. And since Chinese leaders are astute students of history, they remember China being attacked and easily beaten at the sea by two of the greatest military naval power in history: Britain during the Opium Wars, and Japan during the Sino-Japanese War losing the island of Taiwan, along with the disputed island of Diayao or Senkaku to the Japanese. A bitter lesson that's been etched to the entire CPC/PLA psyche to never again let that kind of humiliation to happen again. China and India will clash sometime in the future in order for these two countries to accept their pecking order in the hierarchy of power and order, maybe only then shall one accept it's fate or not. We will find out perhaps in the coming years.
I mean the Indians can say what they want, but they are really too militarily weak to counter China. People that write these kind of nonsense never seem to think about how many ships it would take to blockade there and how do they expect to differentiate ships heading to China vs Japan or Philippines.

I sympathize in India's position. It feels that China is bullying them so they need to rely on other powers. But at this point, India's ability to threaten China is so minimal.
 

56860

Senior Member
Registered Member

sndef888

Senior Member
Registered Member
Problem with Indian politics is they are under the delusion that Modi and Jaishankar are some kind of guru master of geopolitics, playing China and the West like a fiddle.

In reality they're just making stupid jabs at everybody and pissing everyone off without getting anything in return.

China during Mao/Deng's era managed to get vast amounts of industrial transfer and even defence tech from the west. India has gotten almost nothing except getting their egos stroked.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
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Saab is looking to outsource Carl Gustaf M4 manufacturing to India. For India, this may sound like a great deal. But this is actually a continuation of the old trend of it's defence industry. License-producing foreign-origin weapons on Indian soil. They have been doing this for decades already. Such as the: Bofors Haubits FH77 155mm howitzer, T-90 tanks, Su-30MKI, Brahmos missiles, and more recently, the AK-203.

All of this shows that India continues to struggle to innovate its own indegenious weapons design. Sure there are the Vikrant, Arjun, and Tejas. But all of them are designed with extensive input from foreign sources, and all of them are not exactly truly impressive.

The Carl Gustaf M4 recoilless rifle is a popular and impressive shoulder-fired weapon. But it is not the most cutting-edge weapon of it's type. Many countries have already moved on to NLAWS, and MATADOR. China and Russia are already producing superior weapons of their own design.

Rajnath Singh declares that this deal with Saab will help increase India's defence exports. I can't help but think of this as yet another Indian empty boast. While exports of CG M4s made in India could be counted in some statistics. It is ultimately still a product of Saab. Saab will ultimately be the one who gets the most credit, and profits from any CG M4 sales. Any arms-export credit that India wants to claim is worthless. Because India is (again) riding on the defence sales of foreign manufacturers.

'Lesser' nations like South Africa, South Korea, and Turkey are already successfully exporting weapons of their own design. So no matter how India spins this Saab deal. It is not actually progress, it's more of the same. India's defence industry development continues to stagnate.
 
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