Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.


bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
The old thread was closed because of silly arguments that led to the road to perdition.

This thread will be about the Indian military News. Discuss Indian military issues, developments & equipment here.

This thread is not about comparing the Indian military to Pakistan, China, the US or any other nations. Read ALL the forum rules on this matter;

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/announcements/forum-rules-things-remember-before-posting-important-please-read-20.html

H) Topics to compare Indian defense against Chinese defense or any India Vs China discussion are not allowed in this Forum!!!!

And..

4. Don't make unnecessary comparison threads like "J-10 vs. F-16". Or who will win the war between China and the US? Posting such as these lead to nothing but flame wars.
I'll kick things off with a few videos.

[video=youtube;oCTL4pDZOUk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCTL4pDZOUk&feature=related[/video]

[video=youtube;rs6mds7jkoA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs6mds7jkoA[/video]

---------- Post added at 11:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 AM ----------

I'm planting seeds for discussion..

I also saw this article at mp.net.

Is India truly unprepared for a long term war? Or is this general just looking for more and better equipment? Perhaps a little of both. Or is this just internet ramblings???

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India’s million man-plus armed forces are unfit to fight a war, according to the country’s army chief. “The army’s tanks have run out of ammunition, the air defense is as good as obsolete and the infantry is short of critical weapons,” Gen. V.K. Singh wrote in a leaked letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, India’s DNA news agency has reported.

Singh is said to have approached the prime minister after failing to get a response from the Defense Ministry. He warns in the letter that the state of India’s military is “alarming,” noting that the country’s air defense is “97 percent obsolete,” while the elite Special Forces are described as “woefully short” of “essential weapons.”

“This news is causing a lot of angst here,” said The Diplomat contributor Manpreet Sethi, who lectures regularly at India’s armed forces training centers. “Reports are pouring in from both sides – those who are angry with the general for allowing such a leak to happen, especially in the wake of allegations over a bribe he supposedly made earlier in the week, and those who believe that the corruption in the system can only be cleansed if such issues come out in the public.”

“The government is really on the back foot, as it has been on many issues for some time now,” she said.

Indian Defense Minister A.K. Antony confirmed to parliament Wednesday that Singh had indeed sent the letter, and he vowed to “protect every inch of our motherland” by upping the pace of modernization efforts. According to a new report by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, between 2007 and 2011, India emerged as the world’s largest weapons importer. India’s defense budget, meanwhile, is rising by between 13 and 19 percent, depending on the interpretation of the numbers, against forecast GDP growth of 7.6 percent.

“Like any commander of the armed services, he (Singh) is determined to do the best for his service and has accordingly informed the prime minister about the poor decision making in the Defense Ministry and the long delays his army is suffering,” said Devindra Sethi, a retired Indian naval captain. “What’s shocking is that it has been leaked to the media. As only two copies exist, one with the prime minister and the other with the commander of the armed services, it now remains to be confirmed which copy has been copied and leaked.”

The leak comes at an uncomfortable time for New Delhi. With neighbor China itself ramping up military spending in recent years, and with the border between the two still tense, India has felt compelled to revise its own military plans, including deepening ties with allies and focusing on modernizing the country’s Air Force.

“The Air Force, currently the largest beneficiary of India’s rising military budget, is in the middle of shifting its focus from being a purely Pakistan-centric force, to one that will be capable of simultaneously meeting the twin threats posed by an insecure Pakistan and an increasingly belligerent China,” defense analyst Nitin Gokhale wrote in The Diplomat. “In fiscal 2009-10 alone, for instance, the Air Force spent over $4 billion in capital acquisition, almost three times the amount spent by the Army.”

Gokhale says that over the next few years, the Air Force budget for new purchases is only likely to rise with plans to buy six new-generation tanker transports, 22 attack helicopters, 12 heavy-lift helicopters and nearly 200 basic trainer aircraft.

But Indian Decade writer Rajeev Sharma argues that Singh’s letter anyway has politics written all over it.

“This is the first time a serving army chief has posed such political problems to the government. The Indian armed forces have been apolitical for the past 65 years, since independence,” Sharma noted, drawing a contrast with neighbors Pakistan and Nepal. “So the general mood in India on this subject is that the general has been speaking more like a politician of late and therefore his words need to be taken with a pinch of salt.”

Still, fellow Indian Decade contributor Sumit Ganguly suggests where there’s smoke, there’s fire.

“I fear that Singh’s revelations, though possibly motivated by a sense of personal piqué, are essentially correct,” Ganguly said. “India’s weapons acquisitions process is dilatory, cumbersome and plodding. I’ve no independent means of affirming if the situation is as dire as the general has claimed. However, reliable press reports suggest that there is some truth to his assertions.”

“The revelations and the ensuing controversy also underscore the current political disarray within India. For months, there has been an unseemly battle between the Chief of Staff and the Defense Ministry about his age. With the latest revelations, the political atmosphere will become even more miasmic raising serious questions about the workings of civil-military relations in India.”
 

delft

Brigadier
Even a relatively rich country is often badly prepared for war. In the 1930's the RN demonstrated in the Mediterranean with its battle ships in response to the Italian attack on Abyssinia, now called Ethiopia, while its magazines lacked shells for its main guns. So it would not be surprising if India, which is relatively corrupt, would be lacking military preparedness. However the advantages of occupying other countries are nowadays ever less than in the last century so there is really little danger of India being attacked. Also it is better to remember the saying, surely not only Dutch, that to have a good neighbor is better than to have a far friend. India should aim at reaching diplomatic solutions to its border problems and concentrate on ensuring freedom of the sea together with all other seafaring countries.
A supposition of political motives for the letter of the Indian commander in chief is also natural and the publication of the letter by a party unknown suggests others are prepared to play dirty too.
 

plawolf

Brigadier
While I think that the good General's words should not be taken literally, as there appears to be more than a hint of hyperbole about some of the most outlandish claims, I do believe that his comments are based on operational realities and not wholly invented.

This would fit in with my long-held doubts about India's ability to fight a protracted conflict because of it's over-reliance on imported weapons.

When you look at past wars and conflicts, where even the likes of the US, UK and France have been running low on munitions and had to make emergency orders when fighting against hopelessly outclassed foes, it really should come as no great surprise that a nation almost entirely dependent on foreign imported arms for its most advanced weapons could face serious logistical problems if it was to fight a near-peer or even superior force in a high intensity conflict.

In light of these new admissions, it would seem that the now infamous Indian war strategy of trying to knock China out of a conflict within a few hundred hours is more borne out of it's own logistical constraints as opposed to a ridiculously inflated estimate of it's own capabilities. That should give Indians more faith in the competence (and sanity) of their generals and planners, but it should worry them deeply about the condition of their military.

Personally, I believe that the root problem with the Indian military is that politics and politicians interfere far too much into the planning, acquisition and deployment of the Indian military.

Politicians are all too often dazzled by all the fancy sales pitch of snazzy new foreign weapons manufactures, and blows too much of the military budget buying high profile weapons platforms with little consideration about the operational and logistical issues that that creates.

I think the Indians should take Popeye's advice and stop trying to compare themselves against China.

China spends what? 3 times what India does on defense. Yet India far outstrips China on foreign weapons purchases. How can that be sustainable?

Domestic Indian weapons systems are plagued by constantly revising requirements because the politicians demand that the new weapons systems be superior to whatever China is developing, and when China unveils or leaks a new development, the Indians feel they need to 'respond'. So they revise their requirements, adding years and billions onto their projects. All too often, those projects, become so delayed and over-budget that they are killed off by the same politicians who's meddling led to the delays and cost overruns in the first place.

Look at the LCA as a case in point. It could, and probably should have entered service around the same time as the J10A. It might not have been as good as the J10A, but what does it matter? It would have been a start.

Where would China's aviation industry be if it would only build fighters that were as good as the latest fielded by the US and Russia?

Until India sort out it's domestic arms industry, and so long as it relies do heavily on imported munitions and weapons platforms, it cannot be considered as a true military great power no matter how new and fancy their latest imported weapons are.

If I was in charge, I would make domestic munitions a top top priority.

Buying advanced foreign platforms is just about bearable if you have indigenous munitions for them that are as good as what is on offer on the market. Jets, tanks and ships takes a long time to build even in emergency wartime supercharge production cycles, so not being able to make new MKIs or Rafales to replace combat losses will not have a telling difference unless we are talking about a WWIII type war that lasts years and years.

Wars burn through munitions stocks terrifyingly fast, and a few thousand missiles will be gone before you know it. Your fancy MKI and Rafales are not much better than a J7G if they are restricted to guns only, and will be butchered by anything with BVRAAMs left.
 

Bltizo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
One thing I like about indian military developments is that they don't shy away from telling you where they plan to go. That trimaran concept looked an awfully lot like DDG1000, and I'm pretty sure the video clip featured a CATOBAR carrier too.

Makes me wonder what kind of ideas PLAN planners (hurr hurr) have on the drawing board.
 

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
The Indian Defence Staff appears to be approaching the grim conclusion that completing modernization and other preparations for the 2022 deadline - after which they have judged that conditions for a two or three-front war may become operative - are not only too ambitious, but may simply be impossible to meet. 1962 is looming large in the Defence Staff's minds.

A system that remains perennially short of even skilled tradesmen for its defence (and other), industries, never mind one in which graft and incompetence are the front-and-centre issue, is not one that can reasonably be expected to properly function under the stress of high-intensity warfare.

Still, fellow Indian Decade contributor Sumit Ganguly suggests where there’s smoke, there’s fire.

“I fear that Singh’s revelations, though possibly motivated by a sense of personal piqué, are essentially correct,” Ganguly said. “India’s weapons acquisitions process is dilatory, cumbersome and plodding. I’ve no independent means of affirming if the situation is as dire as the general has claimed. However, reliable press reports suggest that there is some truth to his assertions.”

“The revelations and the ensuing controversy also underscore the current political disarray within India. For months, there has been an unseemly battle between the Chief of Staff and the Defense Ministry about his age. With the latest revelations, the political atmosphere will become even more miasmic raising serious questions about the workings of civil-military relations in India.”
The General's statement almost sounds like a veiled (and somewhat desperate) warning (though not a threat as such) to the civilian leadership to do something about the "system" itself, as it is a plea for resources.
 

asif iqbal

Brigadier
Indian military machine is like a jigsaw puzzle, where it collects pieces of the jigsaw from countrys around the world, then bring back all the pieces and put together the puzzle

the problem is, because all the pieces are from so many different countrys its imposible to see what the final picture looks like

there is no common platform and there is no military integration, this results is poor communication and analysis, the result is mistakes , mis-information and delayed response

for example during Kargil War India was not aware that its posts had been overtaken, its wasnt until local shepherds 7 days after did Indian army react, to begin with they were dis-organised and did not know how to react, in a space of 24 hours India lost a Mig21, Mig27 and Mi17 helo to shoulder fired SAMs and a Indian Air Force Canberra was clipped on 21st May 1999 during a photo recon mission

France supplied the targeting pods and Israel provided Heron and Searcher UAVs in addition to 155mm shells

if India wants to be a true military power it needs to start home productions on ALL military systems and streamline the production of its military industry

but i think making the new aircraft carrier in India is a good start for Indians naval shipyards, its outfitting should be also done by only Indian companys so they can learn and improve
 
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SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
The Indian Defence Staff appears to be approaching the grim conclusion that completing modernization and other preparations for the 2022 deadline - after which they have judged that conditions for a two or three-front war may become operative - are not only too ambitious, but may simply be impossible to meet. 1962 is looming large in the Defence Staff's minds.

A system that remains perennially short of even skilled tradesmen for its defence (and other), industries, never mind one in which graft and incompetence are the front-and-centre issue, is not one that can reasonably be expected to properly function under the stress of high-intensity warfare.


The General's statement almost sounds like a veiled (and somewhat desperate) warning (though not a threat as such) to the civilian leadership to do something about the "system" itself, as it is a plea for resources.
Hi Norfolk - long time no hear

I think all the Continental powers are looking at the ramifications and consequences of having to indulge in an accelerating arms race and watch as it sucks the life out of their respective developing economies. I have no doubt that this is why both India and Pakistan have agreed to a joint track arrangement to seat their security instead into regional structures (SCO) to only reduce the crippling cost of multi front security but also to open and assure land and sea trade routes plus energy access.

I think nearly all parties have now accepted that the status-quo offers little to gain and much to lose.
 

Jeff Head

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
The Indian Defence Staff appears to be approaching the grim conclusion that completing modernization and other preparations for the 2022 deadline - after which they have judged that conditions for a two or three-front war may become operative - are not only too ambitious, but may simply be impossible to meet. 1962 is looming large in the Defence Staff's minds.

A system that remains perennially short of even skilled tradesmen for its defence (and other), industries, never mind one in which graft and incompetence are the front-and-centre issue, is not one that can reasonably be expected to properly function under the stress of high-intensity warfare.


The General's statement almost sounds like a veiled (and somewhat desperate) warning (though not a threat as such) to the civilian leadership to do something about the "system" itself, as it is a plea for resources.
Well, they have made a business over the decades of acquiring defensive systems from other nation in the main...with a few notable exceptions. Lately they have been trying harder and harder to build up their own indegnous capability, all the way up to building full carriers themselves.

But, it takes decades to build up all of the infrastructure and expertise necessary and there really is no way to short cut that. If they want it, they are going to have to find a way to spend the time and money to get there. With certain economic initiatives they may be able to accellerate it...but at a cost to their economy and other areas.

We'll see what they do and what they accomplish. Right now, over all, they have some good stuff. but it is a mixture of older Soviet technology, newer Russian systems, their own systems, and more and more, western and US technology. A real hodgepodge. Must be terrible logistically and maintenance wise. Getting to their own and a more similar based system will be good, but it is going to take a long time.
 

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Hi Norfolk - long time no hear

I think all the Continental powers are looking at the ramifications and consequences of having to indulge in an accelerating arms race and watch as it sucks the life out of their respective developing economies. I have no doubt that this is why both India and Pakistan have agreed to a joint track arrangement to seat their security instead into regional structures (SCO) to only reduce the crippling cost of multi front security but also to open and assure land and sea trade routes plus energy access.

I think nearly all parties have now accepted that the status-quo offers little to gain and much to lose.
Hi SampanViking, been a looonnnggg time!

India had a window of opportunity back in the 1970's to really kickstart its economic development, and instead, it remained somewhat complacent, whilst concentrating too heavily perhaps on defence expenditures at the time. Sadly, India is about a generation late in acknowledging its predicament, and is now finding itself caught between something of a rock and a hard place - if someone or something knocks over the applecart. If...

Jeff wrote:

Well, they have made a business over the decades of acquiring defensive systems from other nation in the main...with a few notable exceptions. Lately they have been trying harder and harder to build up their own indegnous capability, all the way up to building full carriers themselves.

But, it takes decades to build up all of the infrastructure and expertise necessary and there really is no way to short cut that. If they want it, they are going to have to find a way to spend the time and money to get there. With certain economic initiatives they may be able to accellerate it...but at a cost to their economy and other areas.

We'll see what they do and what they accomplish. Right now, over all, they have some good stuff. but it is a mixture of older Soviet technology, newer Russian systems, their own systems, and more and more, western and US technology. A real hodgepodge. Must be terrible logistically and maintenance wise. Getting to their own and a more similar based system will be good, but it is going to take a long time.
Yeah, it'll take a generation just to firmly establish (or re-establish) a basic, full-fledged defence industry, if they are really set on doing so. Which makes it all the stranger since, for example, India has been building tanks indigenously since the 1960's, and yet the Arjun project turned into something of a fiasco. Not the only example, but perhaps one of the better ones. What gives? It seems they keep coming full circle over and over again.

They can't pay some of the Indian logisticians enough for what they have do; every desk must have a drawer full of scotch bottles - both full and empty.
 

asif iqbal

Brigadier
Yeah, it'll take a generation just to firmly establish (or re-establish) a basic, full-fledged defence industry, if they are really set on doing so. Which makes it all the stranger since, for example, India has been building tanks indigenously since the 1960's, and yet the Arjun project turned into something of a fiasco. Not the only example, but perhaps one of the better ones. What gives? It seems they keep coming full circle over and over again.
in the case of the Arjun it started after 1971 war believe it or not, that is 40 years ago

when the army sent for the requirment for a tank DRDO put together a tank which relied on systems from various suppliers, in the coming years the army constantly kept changing the requirments and quite simply DRDO could not meet the constantly changing orders from the army

by the time the tank was made it weighed a massive 60 tons, it couldnt cross any bridges the army had nor could it be air lifted

in 2004 only 16 production had been made, after Israeli provided much needed help, Germany supplys the engine and transmission, the rest is from israel

after extensive field trials the army finally switched to T90, and in 2001 and 2006 ordered up 600+ T90s and also signed another contract for a 3rd batch to have more than 1,000 T90s

Arjun was supposed to be India answer to fullfill its armys orders and requirments, after 4 decades of work it never achieved that, so in that respect you can say Arjun project is a fail as it never met its objectives
 

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