Crisis in the Ukraine

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delft

Brigadier
lol, atrocities. The people there were shot in the back of the head and put in the mass graves of hundreds bodies the normal Russian way that they identified them so fast or what?

Explain, I need a forensic team there at least before calling names!
OSCE monitors are concerned with the investigation.
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
We have to be thankful to EU that today we have democracy in Ukraine where people are no longer afraid to speak their minds. Last bastion of former Soviet colonies is liberated from the oppressive yoke of Communism.

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delft

Brigadier
John Mearsheimer has a good take on the current Ukraine crisis, where he laid the blame (rightly, IMHO) at the feet of US and NATO. It's a great read, and even if some don't agree with Mearsheimer, the arguments are sound, reasonable, and well laid-out. Read it just so you could respond to the other side with a fuller picture.

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This is of course politics.
The main problem with Mersheimers article is that he accepts control over a large part of the World by a hegemon while claiming that it is compatible with democracy. The hegemon decides which countries belong to the World Community - Saudi Arabia and Bahrain do, Iran and Syria do not. Ukraine does despite the fact that its parliament is controlled by oligarchs, Russia does not despite the fact that the power of the oligarchs is reduced.
In the discussion over a free trade agreement between US and EU it is accepted that in the case of a change of policy by a country which is disadvantageous to a multinational company that company can go to an international tribunal that can force that country to compensate the company. This takes power away from elected parliaments and it is an advantage that local companies don't have. I have a good hope that the German court in Karlsruhe will reject the agreement and that it will fail but it shows the US as opposed to democratic control over governments.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Well he's entitled to his opinion. He has the right to say what he wants and even though it is a direct personal attack I won't report his comment as abuse.

Nope, comments weren't intended as a personal attack, but an editorial. I said it was a cheap shot because you linked some pictures of atrocities to "true democracy." Reasonable people can agree, or not.

If you have criticisms of US and NATO then state them plainly, no need walk around the edges. Come out with it. Frankly, I agree with the notion NATO broke its promise to Russia and expanded right up to its front door. Latvia and Lithuania were bad enough, but Ukraine was the straw that broke the camel's back. Putin acted like any responsible Russian autocrat would to secure Russia's front door and push back NATO.

Don't misunderstand me, I support knocking Russia down and make sure it's always weak. That should have been done after the fall of the Soviet Union, and the US should have overlooked Tiananmen and made China partners in the deed. But, there's no political will in the West to do that now, and such things can't be done in half measures. We missed a golden opportunity to neuter Russia.

My intention isn't to insult, I'm merely stating my views.
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
Well one man's "wine" is another man's poison because each of us look at things differently. As I have said, feel free to call me names or what not.
I've came across comments that are anything but "editorial" but if you choose to call a rose a carrot of course that's your pejorative.
 
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Dannhill

Junior Member
So this is what a truce is like. I'm sure Moscow lied about this as they have lied about everything else. Right?

At least 11 people have been killed and 40 others have been injured in Donetsk, where a school and a bus stop came under fire - reportedly from Ukrainian Army positions.

Two people are reported to have died at the school, and nine at the bus stop, according to Donetsk People Republic's Depity Prime Minister Andrey Purgin.

No children were killed in the shelling of school №57, the Donetsk People’s Republic ‘s Interior Ministry said, as cited by TASS. The ministry's press service added that parents and teachers became victims of the shelling.

The city council stated that all 70 children studying at the school were in the building at the moment of the strike. They were hastily evacuated. The school building was damaged in the attack.

The Russian Foreign Ministry describes the attack is a cynical and blatant breach of international law.

“The particular cynicism of this shelling is the very fact that today was the children’s first day at school. And on this day, artillery directly targets them. These are blatant, intolerable things,” the ministry’s human rights ombudsman Konstantin Dolgov said.

No Ukrainian sources have confirmed the information yet.

“Heavy artillery fire is being heard in Donetsk. The Kievsky district has been under fire – many residential areas and other buildings have been damaged, civilians have been killed and wounded,” the city council said in a statement.

Public transport has been changing routes due to the shelling.

One hundred and forty-six schools in the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic had commenced classes out of 150, Minister of Education of Donetsk People's Republic Igor Kostenok said.

A ceasefire between the Ukrainian government and the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics’ authorities was signed in Minsk, Belarus, on September 5.

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