Turkey Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Gloire_bb said:

To be more specific, Turkey is planning to become the first country ever to make such plans go right. People are in their right to be skeptical here.

For comparison - there were a lot of giggles on this forum about Taiwanese plans to somehow make their own 5th gen fighter...but their first jet first flew in 1980, and Taiwan actually has all the necessary industry in place...

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That's exactly the point: It is not that we wish them bad-luck or even failures. All we want is a decent and open minded discussion concerning the more than justified questions and concerns.

Point is, there are many much more experienced countries around which had their problems, set-backs or even failures. Just look at Russia ... and Turkey want to do it all in one, in less time with less experience!?? Any concerns are therefore more than justified and I still don't get why all we get as replies are not explanations but accusations of being biased.

Gloire_bb said:

A lot can go wrong when you're making remotely controlled drones now, and plan for carrier-borne 5th gen fighters with autonomous naval drones by the end of this decade. There is a whole bunch of steps in-between, and you're planning for them before first actual Turkish jet (Hurjet) has even rolled out, much less flown (and even less - obtained experience for the team).

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A lot can go wrong but why would it? If the goal is a carrier capable aircraft for both the Hurjet and TF-X, then the in-between step is a normal variant right? The same is for drones. The Hurjet is scheduled to be ready for serial production by 2025. Why would it be difficult for it to be modified into a carrier capable aircraft, test it on simulated land based carrier facilities and eventually land on a carrier post 2030? The same can be said for the TF-X. Why can't the TF-X carrier variant be developed sometime starting from 2025 and be finished by 2035, running parallel to both the conventional variant and the carrier capable Hurjet using cross-pollination from these and other projects?

As for the carrier capable drones, the in between steps are the (year of first flight) Anka(2010), TB2(2014), Aksungur(2019), Akinci(2019), TB3(2022), subsonic MIUS(2023), supersonic MIUS(2025?) and eventually a carrier capable MIUS. I don't know why someone would regard a carrier capable MIUS as an impossibility from 2030 onwards?

BTW, the TB2 and Akinci have automatic take-off and landing capability. Why would it be difficult to develop a carrier based system within 10 years?

Gloire_bb said:

To be more specific, Turkey is planning to become the first country ever to make such plans go right. People are in their right to be skeptical here.

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The US already has flown drones from carriers. Who says other countries can't achieve the same in 10 years time?

Gloire_bb said:

For comparison - there were a lot of giggles on this forum about Taiwanese plans to somehow make their own 5th gen fighter...but their first jet first flew in 1980, and Taiwan actually has all the necessary industry in place...

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Taiwan isn't Turkey. The Taiwanese aerospace industry has stagnated or in some cases regressed. They fielded a supersonic fighter decades ago and recently introduced a non-afterburning trainer variant. That is regress. As for their 5th gen project, it is basically a light-weight LO interceptor aircraft that fits their military doctrine. Something that is achievable for Taiwan in 10 years time, especially with the vast amounts of US support. The model does look funny though.

Btw, a great article about Baykar's UAV capabilities well worth the read. Bear in mind that this article is almost 4 years old and the TB2 has accumulated over 300000 flight hours so far and the Akinci has been introduced in the mean time.

sequ said:

...The Hurjet is scheduled to be ready for serial production by 2025. Why would it be difficult for it to be modified into a carrier capable aircraft, test it on simulated land based carrier facilities and eventually land on a carrier post 2030? The same can be said for the TF-X. Why can't the TF-X carrier variant be developed sometime starting from 2025 and be finished by 2035, running parallel to both the conventional variant and the carrier capable Hurjet using cross-pollination from these and other projects?

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...

Again, you don't get it and the question should be: Why should it be so easy as you claim for it to be modified into a carrier capable aircraft, test it on simulated land based carrier facilities and eventually land on a carrier post 2030?

Did You ever check how long development, testing and certification of the much-less complex T-45 for the USN too? And by the way, which aircraft - especially a modern one - was ever ready for production after only two year?

I cannot understand what goes on in your mind to think this could be done? In fact it is Turkey's first indigenous aircraft and you try to tell us that after only two years it should be ready for production? How long is the T-7 flying and when will it be certified and ready for service??

And for the TFX ... simply since nothing will be ready in 2025 that could be finished until 2035.

Come on ... NONE of your claims makes any sense!

Deino said:

Again, you don't get it and the question should be: Why should it be so easy as you claim for it to be modified into a carrier capable aircraft, test it on simulated land based carrier facilities and eventually land on a carrier post 2030?

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Because of modern supercomputers, development software like CFD, simulation flights for increased efficiency (which could lead to faster development and testing) and foreign support from the UK and Italy.

Deino said:

Did You ever check how long development, testing and certification of the much-less complex T-45 for the USN too? And by the way, which aircraft - especially a modern one - was ever ready for production after only two year?

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Why are you comparing a supersonic carrier capable Hurjet with a subsonic carrier capable trainer instead of a supersonic carrier capable fighter like the F/A-18? Because it doesn't fit your biased view. The YF-17 flew for the first time in 1974. The F/A-18 in 1978 and it got introduced a bit more than 4 years later. Total time from first flight of the YF-17 to introduction of the F/A-18 is less than 8,5 years.

Deino said:

I cannot understand what goes on in your mind to think this could be done? In fact it is Turkey's first indigenous aircraft and you try to tell us that after only two years it should be ready for production?

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See my 1st answer above. And it is not Turkeys first indigenous aircraft. The Hurjet CDR is completed. They have engineers available to develop further variants, like combat-capable trainer, aerobatics and a carrier variant.

Deino said:

How long is the T-7 flying and when will it be certified and ready for service??

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What about the T-7? The introduction is constantly shoved not because of technical issues, but rather financial ones.

Deino said:

And for the TFX ... simply since nothing will be ready in 2025 that could be finished until 2035.

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CDR will be finished in 2024 and from then on they'll have engineers available to develop further variants.

Deino said:

Come on ... NONE of your claims makes any sense!

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Like I've proven above, they do make sense.

sequ said:

simulation flights for increased efficiency (which could lead to faster development and testing)

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As Turkey’s first indigenously developed supersonic aircraft the HÜRJET will pave the way for the MMU/TF-X. TUSAŞ currently is aiming to complete the subsystem procurement of HÜRJET. When the subsystem, the engine, etc., is completed, it means most of the work is almost done, then the production stage will start. In early September 2020 TUSAŞ announced that they had established the HÜRJET Test and Evaluation Simulator dubbed HÜRJET 270. Equipped with artificial intelligence (AI) infrastructure, the HÜRJET 270 (with 270-degree field of view) engineering simulator is designed to collect feedback from test pilots to make the design of HÜRJET “better, more solid and more efficient.” The simulator is also meant to detect design faults at the development stage. Comprising less costly parts of the original aircraft while still containing its latest technological developments, the simulator will also be able to instantly detect errors encountered by pilots during test runs, a first for the defense industry. Thanks to its real-time software, size, and features, along with its wide viewing angle, existing risks will be identified and eliminated during the development phase. According to TUSAŞ the HÜRJET 270 simulator will feature “human eye-level resolution.” It will also collect data for future training simulators. The integration of the simulator’s avionic and flight control software, screens, cockpit components and communication equipment were completed by the TUSAŞ Prototyping Office. Speaking on the expected contributions from the HÜRJET 270 engineering simulator to the project, TUSAŞ Deputy General Manager Atilla DOĞAN said: “We have to develop the flight control algorithm and software and the avionics software before the plane is produced and assembled. The 270-degree engineering simulator we developed for HÜRJET provides us with a greater capability to make flight control algorithms, software and avionics software with the input of test pilots.”

sequ said:

simulation flights to shorten test time and foreign support from the UK

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An example of this support:

On September 16, 2020 Stirling Dynamics of the UK announced that they secured a new contract from TUSAŞ to provide technical assistance in the areas of loads and aeroelastics for the HÜRJET aircraft program. This contract builds on previous support provided by Stirling Dynamics, which was initial consultancy to support TUSAŞ up to the HÜRJET’s Preliminary Design Review (PDR). Under the new contract, Stirling Dynamics will support TUSAŞ’ engineering team as they work towards Critical Design Review (CDR). Stirling Dynamics’ engineers will provide support in several formats involving training and guidance, expert review, and off-site work packages. Technical areas of interest include flight and gust loads, buffet, flutter, and validation testing. Henry HACKFORD, Stirling’s Aerospace Technical Services Business Unit Manager, commented: “We are delighted to have the opportunity to work with TUSAŞ again on their indigenous aircraft development program. The HÜRJET contract is the realization of a long-standing dialogue with TUSAŞ and provides an exceptional opportunity for us to demonstrate our key strengths.”

sequ said:

Why are you comparing a supersonic carrier capable Hurjet with a subsonic carrier capable trainer instead of a supersonic carrier capable fighter like the F/A-18?

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Well, it would've been to your benefit, actually. Supersonic jets are more difficult to get right than subsonic ones.

Comparing TAI with 40 yrs old story of (then) one of the most experienced naval aircraft design houses in the world -MDD- is outright wishful. TAI is not 1980s MDD, TAI is not LM(which struggled through 2 major redesigns of F-35C), TAI isn't even HAL (which produced a naval fighter that can't properly operate from the deck). TAI is still designing its first.jet.ever.

sequ said:

Because of modern supercomputers, development software like CFD, simulation flights for increased efficiency (which could lead to faster development and testing) and foreign support from the UK and Italy.

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...and aircraft become more and more complex.
Entering the trade later actually becomes more complex with time, not the other way around.

Gloire_bb said:

Well, it would've been to your benefit, actually. Supersonic jets are more difficult to get right than subsonic ones.

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The evidence goes both ways. A subsonic dedicated carrier trainer with a long development time and a supersonic carrier fighter that begun as an airforce fighter, with less than 9 years from first flight to introduction. Perhaps the T45 wasn't that much of a priority and the F/A-18 was?

Comparing TAI with 40 yrs old story of (then) one of the most experienced naval aircraft design houses in the world -MDD- is outright wishful. TAI is not 1980s MDD, TAI is not LM(which struggled through 2 major redesigns of F-35C), TAI isn't even HAL (which produced a naval fighter that can't properly operate from the deck). TAI is still designing its first.jet.ever.

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And Turkey gets help from a premier UK fighter developer and maker. The head of the Eurofighter program is helping TAI as a consultant with the Hurjet.

And neither is comparing the lack-luster, nit-picky and bureaucratic nightmare of the Indian military procurement with the Turkish one. The Indian military can always buy a carrier fighter off the shelf, a luxury not for Turkey. Turkish military and MIC are cooperating in 'a do or die' fashion. There is no alternative for Turkey but to develop in-house.

Gloire_bb said:

...and aircraft become more and more complex.

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And so did development tools. Mere two prototypes of the Hurjet are going to be build thanks to advancements in design and testing software and facilities.

Gloire_bb said:

Entering the trade later actually becomes more complex with time, not the other way around.

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Not when an aircraft with a conservative 4th gen air-frame and 40 year old engine is developed with today's technology.

sequ said:

The evidence goes both ways. A subsonic dedicated carrier trainer with a long development time and a supersonic carrier fighter that begun as an airforce fighter, with less than 9 years from first flight to introduction. Perhaps the T45 wasn't that much of a priority and the F/A-18 was?

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Basically, any comparing works against TAI. Scedules seem to be over optimistic, and take ideal development for granted.
Not a healthy way to develop things which you have never done before, especially in a country dependant on foreign supplies.

sequ said:

And so did development tools. Mere two prototypes of the Hurjet are going to be build thanks to advancements in design and testing software and facilities.

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Again, that's the plan before even the first flight. Let's for example, assume, that actual flight testing will show some structural weakness - and then not only Hurjet, but whole plan of world domination gets delayed. Because it's interlocked.

sequ said:

Not when an aircraft with a conservative 4th gen air-frame and engine is developed with today's technology.

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Even pure land-based KAI T-50 took substantially longer. And it was basically a Lockheed design.

As for naval design - right now for TAI it's essentially a theory. No facilities to test things, no experience, nothing.

BTW, I'm more hyped by the MIUS than the Hurjet. The MIUS, depending on how good the AI autonomy is and the redundancy of its navigation systems might very well become what the Turkish navy is looking for instead of a manned carrier fighter.