The War in the Ukraine

Surpluswarrior

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Bollocks. Russia created the Mir debit and credit card to replace Visa and Mastercard. [...]

And in tanks and armored vehicles you can see a huge difference. They built hundreds of BMD-4M IFVs at a rate of over a hundred a year. Hundreds of BMP-3 IFVs again over a hundred a year. They upgraded hundreds of T-72B tanks to B3 and B3M status. They upgraded like a thousand BTR-80s to BTR-82A standard. They replaced the Tochka with Iskander. They also produced enough Ratnik kit to equip all their standing army.

I think it's possible to have a rational discussion about Russian preparedness for this conflict.

Gelgoog has already described measures taken by the Russians to protect themselves from the sanctions war. They seem to have performed above expectations in this regard.

OTOH, many 'complain' on-line that Russia should have achieved military results more quickly. This opens a discussion on Russia's military modernization.

Again, Gelgoog has indicated areas in which the Russians produced many AFV for their own forces. [We saw those BTR-82A being used in large war-preparatory exercises in 2021. Much 'heavy equipment' was parked near Ukraine after the exercises.]

The criticism on this forum and elsewhere of Russian preparations tends to focus first and foremost on drones and ALGM. A child could have told Shoigu that drones would be used en masse, and be vital to the war effort. However, Russia spent much time and development funds on sophisticated drones, some of which have only limited presence or are not available yet. The issue of PGM is compared with China, which is said to practice with air-launched PGMs at a much higher rate.

Russia eventually turned itself around on the issue of drones, mass-deploying those Iranian designs. I don't know if their PGM situation is from a lack of PGM + training, or if they don't have a means of providing targeting data for these air-launched weapons. Ukraine is a big place to hide in.

The RuAF in general is not used as lavishly as NATO countries do. What is it, 200 sorties per day instead of 1000+? There is talk here that wear on aircraft is a big deal. Russian doctrine may not emphasize the air force as much as NATO, but to what degree are they deficient in desired aircraft numbers? They have a respectable ability to produce aircraft (SU-35, SU-30, SU-34), so if numbers are inadequate then there is a budget issue.

[They are using up SU-25s, and it's unclear if they have the ability to produce them. Speaks to poor planning if they are going to run out.]

When looking at the overall modernization of ground forces, how is it versus what it could have been? We have to measure Russia against what it is capable of. They produced many T72B3, but only got in late producing the better T72B3M. Cost-benefit is the primary calculation here: you get several T72B3 for each T90, and many for each T-14. They are fighting on a very large front. Having enough decent tanks is more important than having a smaller number of good tanks. [T-62 and T-55 are being used/considered in this war, because having an armoured box with a gun is more important than a T-90M that isn't there.]

Did Russia make the right choice [for them] producing so many T-72B3? Probably, although B3M is better. The real problem in their AFV pool is the rest of the tracked IFV. They had the technology to start producing Berezhok turrets for BMP-2 back in 2016. How many were actually converted? Could they all have been converted by 2022? Was it worthwhile to create and field the new BMP-1 with 30mm cannon? They recently started producing an uparmoured variant of the BMP-3M. Why not start in 2014? Middle-Eastern countries got uparmoured BMP-3 [granted, non-amphibious. But they don't seem to use that capability.] So right now, Russian soldiers are driving around in standard BMP-3Ms, or sitting on top of BMP-2s.

They 'modernized' the MTLB, which is a useful logistics vehicle. But there was a proposed BMP-3 based logistics vehicle that they could have produced, but did not. OTOH, we saw that they came into the war with armoured trains, which had been used in previous conflicts. Their train-based logistics have generally delivered large quantities of supplies, almost since the beginning.

Their artillery pool is a different story. The problem goes back decades. They could have modernized their existing, late-model Soviet 152mm MSTA SPG, and there was a Soviet program to do so. Instead, they got stuck trying to build Koalitsiya forever. Various useful upgrade programs for Soviet SPG were stalled, the new-gen SPG has not yet arrived. Arguably, they screwed up here. They are fielding a lot of equipment given the size of their budget, that is a success story. But the 'modernization' is not what it could have been. Big picture, they maybe didn't think artillery would be as important as it has been.

In terms of infantry equipment, they are on Ratnik-2 gear, with Ratnik-3 coming at some point. Unfortunately for them, NATO has delivered a lot of modern body armour to Ukraine, reportedly, so Russia is running to keep up. The AK-12 has been produced, but is seemingly hobbled by questionable decisions at the bureaucratic level [2-round burst?]. Soldiers have to buy parts to get AK-12 in the desired configuration. Arguably, the needs of the end-user have not been met in stock form.

Big picture, seems as if Russia had to concentrate funding on strategic weapons and air defense. ICBMs, hypersonic missiles, S-400 would reduce the risk of NATO intervention. Russia's powerful strategic force dramatically increases the 'cost' [suicide] of direct conflict with Russia. Submarine force is very expensive. Then, there is air force. At some point down the line, you have the ground-forces modernization. The need to protect Russia via strategic forces sucked up much of the money that could go to ground forces. Reminiscent of DPRK funding its nuclear program before its ground-force modernization.

The other issue is bureaucratic dysfunction. People who may be removed from daily use of equipment [like AK-12] making decisions on what it should be. Concentrating on gee-whiz weapons like 2-barrel Koalitsiya, which delayed development. Indecisiveness on procuring vehicle improvements such as Berezhok turret, and producing BMPT. Going further back, was it the right move to cancel BTR-90? It's likely that because of some bad decisions, vanity decisions, and indecisiveness that Russian ground-force modernization is not what it could have been.

Of course, all of this declines in importance if you are not fully utilizing your main ground forces anyway. A disproportionate amount of the fighting seems to have been conducted by Donbass militia, regional formations such as the Chechens, and high use of the airborne forces. The regular army seems to be frequently used in a supportive role, as artillery and tank support for those other forces. So you don't get to fully utilize modernized ground forces with BMP-3M, T-90MS, etc... if they are still sitting in Belarus.

So there's a complex interplay of funding availability, procurement decisions, and actual use of Russian combat forces. I haven't talked much about RuAF, I'm sure there is a big laundry list of things they should have / be doing according to members here. There are interesting arguments / reasons over whether ground force modernization could have been more extensive.
 

Surpluswarrior

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Also, in terms of next-gen systems, straight-up corruption hampered the development of Kurganetz-based vehicles.

The admin of that project are in jail, as they stole funds for use in the Kurganetz program. It is behind schedule because of theft. Is that a system that could have been ready in Ukraine? I don't know, but it likely sucked up funds that could have gone towards further modernization of the existing vehicle stock.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
The RuAF in general is not used as lavishly as NATO countries do. What is it, 200 sorties per day instead of 1000+?
This 200 vs 1000 sorties avg is irrelevant as we dont know the distance and loadout of sortie. and the period of time. one month avg is very different than some thing that could span over years. Flankers are used extremely lightly loaded from the pictures released.
[They are using up SU-25s, and it's unclear if they have the ability to produce them. Speaks to poor planning if they are going to run out.]
Su-25 and MIG-31 are low G airframes like passenger airline. they should be able to sustain prolong conflict. and they are in sufficient number.
Also, in terms of next-gen systems, straight-up corruption hampered the development of Kurganetz-based vehicles.
if the system development does not meet requirements at given time line. they put on corruption. the point is no one can find effective management for every project in the world. if Russia can build Ka-52M and Mi-28NM in sufficient numbers with right weapons every thing else is secondary. Russia first airborne AESA radar operational went into naval choppers and now into attack choppers. thats how much importance they give to development of chopper fleet. There is another command chopper based on Mi-38 in development.
some one has to carry the short range kamikaze drone near to the battlefield.
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"The Mi-28N and 28 NM air arsenals are now equipped with day and night usable
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, multi-role ammunition that allows attack without the need to enter enemy air defense territory. There are also new generation rockets that are upgraded incapacity, as well as bombs of various calibers", he said. The helicopter is also capable of launching
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drones. According to Shcherbina, the inclusion of kamikaze drones in the air arsenal of warships is one area of interaction between Mi-28NM and UAV (unmanned aerial vehicles).
According to him, under this scheme mi-28NM attack helicopters can launch one or more kamikaze drones from their board when entering a designated area.
 

Surpluswarrior

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Also, in terms of next-gen systems, straight-up corruption hampered the development of Kurganetz-based vehicles.

The admin of that project are in jail, as they stole funds for use in the Kurganetz program. It is behind schedule because of theft. Is that a system that could have been ready in Ukraine? I don't know, but it likely sucked up funds that could have gone towards further modernization of the existing vehicle stock.
I should add that this is something I read a while back in translated Russian media.

I'm not clear on what is happening with the Kurganetz. It has been the subject of delays, and may occupy a middle-child position between the new Bumerang and Armata programs, and the modernization of older AFV.

Some Russian-language discussions talk about bad factory management involved with the plants where Kurganetz is to be produced. So I don't know who is in jail for what - there has been some shadiness in the Kurganetz program. But as an outside observer, it is difficult to tell what is going on.
 

defenceman

Junior Member
Registered Member
They predicted it allright. The Russians planned for this war since 2014. It happened a bit sooner than they wanted to but they just ploughed in regardless. If you look at the Russian buildup of armored battalions over past 8 years it is kind of obvious.
Hi my thought is Russians been betrayed by previous couple of presidents when they been given assurance about non NATO status for Ukraine as at that time USA been busy with war on terror & already been in Afghanistan like wise other NATO troops too
so by that time they need Russian help not to engage with talibans against these forces
at the end Putin has taken too much time to cross over Ukraine officially should have done early in the last decade another big Q is what will happen if Russian leave the scenario like this as ukraine will be given NATO status will NATo long range missiles on Russian borders
thank you
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think it's possible to have a rational discussion about Russian preparedness for this conflict.

Gelgoog has already described measures taken by the Russians to protect themselves from the sanctions war. They seem to have performed above expectations in this regard.

OTOH, many 'complain' on-line that Russia should have achieved military results more quickly. This opens a discussion on Russia's military modernization.

Again, Gelgoog has indicated areas in which the Russians produced many AFV for their own forces. [We saw those BTR-82A being used in large war-preparatory exercises in 2021. Much 'heavy equipment' was parked near Ukraine after the exercises.]

The criticism on this forum and elsewhere of Russian preparations tends to focus first and foremost on drones and ALGM. A child could have told Shoigu that drones would be used en masse, and be vital to the war effort. However, Russia spent much time and development funds on sophisticated drones, some of which have only limited presence or are not available yet. The issue of PGM is compared with China, which is said to practice with air-launched PGMs at a much higher rate.

Russia eventually turned itself around on the issue of drones, mass-deploying those Iranian designs. I don't know if their PGM situation is from a lack of PGM + training, or if they don't have a means of providing targeting data for these air-launched weapons. Ukraine is a big place to hide in.

The RuAF in general is not used as lavishly as NATO countries do. What is it, 200 sorties per day instead of 1000+? There is talk here that wear on aircraft is a big deal. Russian doctrine may not emphasize the air force as much as NATO, but to what degree are they deficient in desired aircraft numbers? They have a respectable ability to produce aircraft (SU-35, SU-30, SU-34), so if numbers are inadequate then there is a budget issue.

[They are using up SU-25s, and it's unclear if they have the ability to produce them. Speaks to poor planning if they are going to run out.]

When looking at the overall modernization of ground forces, how is it versus what it could have been? We have to measure Russia against what it is capable of. They produced many T72B3, but only got in late producing the better T72B3M. Cost-benefit is the primary calculation here: you get several T72B3 for each T90, and many for each T-14. They are fighting on a very large front. Having enough decent tanks is more important than having a smaller number of good tanks. [T-62 and T-55 are being used/considered in this war, because having an armoured box with a gun is more important than a T-90M that isn't there.]

Did Russia make the right choice [for them] producing so many T-72B3? Probably, although B3M is better. The real problem in their AFV pool is the rest of the tracked IFV. They had the technology to start producing Berezhok turrets for BMP-2 back in 2016. How many were actually converted? Could they all have been converted by 2022? Was it worthwhile to create and field the new BMP-1 with 30mm cannon? They recently started producing an uparmoured variant of the BMP-3M. Why not start in 2014? Middle-Eastern countries got uparmoured BMP-3 [granted, non-amphibious. But they don't seem to use that capability.] So right now, Russian soldiers are driving around in standard BMP-3Ms, or sitting on top of BMP-2s.

They 'modernized' the MTLB, which is a useful logistics vehicle. But there was a proposed BMP-3 based logistics vehicle that they could have produced, but did not. OTOH, we saw that they came into the war with armoured trains, which had been used in previous conflicts. Their train-based logistics have generally delivered large quantities of supplies, almost since the beginning.

Their artillery pool is a different story. The problem goes back decades. They could have modernized their existing, late-model Soviet 152mm MSTA SPG, and there was a Soviet program to do so. Instead, they got stuck trying to build Koalitsiya forever. Various useful upgrade programs for Soviet SPG were stalled, the new-gen SPG has not yet arrived. Arguably, they screwed up here. They are fielding a lot of equipment given the size of their budget, that is a success story. But the 'modernization' is not what it could have been. Big picture, they maybe didn't think artillery would be as important as it has been.

In terms of infantry equipment, they are on Ratnik-2 gear, with Ratnik-3 coming at some point. Unfortunately for them, NATO has delivered a lot of modern body armour to Ukraine, reportedly, so Russia is running to keep up. The AK-12 has been produced, but is seemingly hobbled by questionable decisions at the bureaucratic level [2-round burst?]. Soldiers have to buy parts to get AK-12 in the desired configuration. Arguably, the needs of the end-user have not been met in stock form.

Big picture, seems as if Russia had to concentrate funding on strategic weapons and air defense. ICBMs, hypersonic missiles, S-400 would reduce the risk of NATO intervention. Russia's powerful strategic force dramatically increases the 'cost' [suicide] of direct conflict with Russia. Submarine force is very expensive. Then, there is air force. At some point down the line, you have the ground-forces modernization. The need to protect Russia via strategic forces sucked up much of the money that could go to ground forces. Reminiscent of DPRK funding its nuclear program before its ground-force modernization.

The other issue is bureaucratic dysfunction. People who may be removed from daily use of equipment [like AK-12] making decisions on what it should be. Concentrating on gee-whiz weapons like 2-barrel Koalitsiya, which delayed development. Indecisiveness on procuring vehicle improvements such as Berezhok turret, and producing BMPT. Going further back, was it the right move to cancel BTR-90? It's likely that because of some bad decisions, vanity decisions, and indecisiveness that Russian ground-force modernization is not what it could have been.

Of course, all of this declines in importance if you are not fully utilizing your main ground forces anyway. A disproportionate amount of the fighting seems to have been conducted by Donbass militia, regional formations such as the Chechens, and high use of the airborne forces. The regular army seems to be frequently used in a supportive role, as artillery and tank support for those other forces. So you don't get to fully utilize modernized ground forces with BMP-3M, T-90MS, etc... if they are still sitting in Belarus.

So there's a complex interplay of funding availability, procurement decisions, and actual use of Russian combat forces. I haven't talked much about RuAF, I'm sure there is a big laundry list of things they should have / be doing according to members here. There are interesting arguments / reasons over whether ground force modernization could have been more extensive.
Whatever happened before the war, there is nothing like actually fighting one to concentrate the mind. They will make many corrections to their military procurements having fought this war.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Despite HIMARS, Smerch and Uragans, Grads remain the MLRS workhorse for both sides. Here the Ukrainians are wasting their Grads on civilian targets in the Donetsk.



Russian drone helps take out this border post. Israeli origin? I don't understand the title.



Krasnopols being used to target GAZ-66 supply trucks. Note there are Krasnopol like shells also being fired from mortars and 122mm guns that are not Krasnopols, and some shelling attributed to Krasnopols by the media might be coming from these instead. Krasnopols fired from MSTA S is a different variant from those fired from Akasya, D20 and D30 howitzers.

 

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
Anybody familiar with NG-1 communication standard networks?


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For the operation of the new Kalashnikov IT system, a forgotten Chinese communication standard was needed

Russian troops in the zone of the NMD began to use the communication networks of the Chinese standard NG-1, which for a long time the authorities did not give frequencies for the construction of networks. This technology is necessary for packet data transmission from the command and control system recently developed by the Kalashnikov concern.

Russian troops began to use NG-1 technology

Russian troops in the course of a special military operation (SVO) on the territory of Ukraine use the wireless communication technology of the Chinese standard NG-1 (another name is McWill). Alexander Khodakovsky , the commander of the Vostok battalion, which is part of the structure of the troops of the Donetsk People's Republic ( DPR ) , spoke about this in his Telegram channel .

Troop control system from "Kalashnikov"

According to Khodakovsky, an urgent task for the front is to ensure packet data transmission. Now the troops began to receive new artillery reconnaissance systems, as well as the command and control system developed by the Kalashnikov concern. This system allows you to instantly transmit information from the front to all sectors, including the General Staff.

svo600.jpg

Russian troops in the zone of the NMD began to use the communication networks of the Chinese standard NG-1 , which the authorities did not give frequencies for a long time to build networks in Russia

“Imagine - our field aerial reconnaissance has detected targets and you give their coordinates, and they require video confirmation from you, but you cannot instantly send a video file from an unmanned aerial vehicle to headquarters to make a decision on hitting a target,” Khodakovsky explains. - The capabilities of the product developed by the Kalashnikovs are very wide - up to determining the coordinates of the assault groups and displaying them on the screen of the headquarters monitor, if the groups have a tool that allows them to do this. There is a means of determining the coordinates, but there are no means of transporting these coordinates in automatic mode , which makes it necessary to constantly request the location of the group by radio stations.

Communication problems in the troops

In the fields where hostilities take place, there are problems with cellular coverage: if it is, then without the possibility of data transmission. There are also problems with satellite Internet: the orbits of Russian communication satellites are located north of the NBO zone. “As a result, for example, pointing the antenna at the Yamal satellite (owned by Gazprom Space Systems ) is almost impossible, because the elevation angle dangles around fifteen degrees, and any bush becomes a hindrance,” says Khodakovsky. “Other operators have it easier, but still I have not seen an angle higher than forty-two degrees.”

In addition, when working with satellite dishes, a number of problems arise: it is necessary to use open spaces and hills; such antennas have considerable dimensions; antennas are not recommended to be painted for masking, so as not to weaken the reception and transmission signal (even dense clouds affect it ). Another problem is the lack of tariffs for satellite operators with unlimited internet .

Benefits of NG-1

The solution may be to use the NG-1 network: this technology works on the trunking principle and provides data transfer from the rear to the front. True, the data transfer rate is small, but sufficient to create a network.

How Ukraine solves the issues of communications and command and control

Oleksandr Khodakovskoy notes that the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) have a better situation with communications and IT systems for departments. Since the beginning of the NWO , the Armed Forces of Ukraine have been using the Starlink mobile satellite Internet system created by Elon Musk . Musk recently promised to shut down Starlink if his company didn't start getting paid to provide its services to Ukraine, but after talks with the Pentagon , the entrepreneur promised to continue supporting Ukraine.

In addition, the Armed Forces of Ukraine have at their disposal the Nettle software package. It allows integrating reconnaissance, command and control and fire weapons into a single information space.

How they tried to introduce NG-1 in Russia

The NG-1 standard was developed by the Chinese corporation Xinwei. The technology provides voice and data transmission at speeds up to 15 Mbps , as well as video information. In Russia, the technology is being promoted by NIRIT Xinway Telecom Technology ( NSTT ), in which Xinwei owns 30%. The remaining 70% belongs to the Russian group BIT.

Back in 2011, the project received support from the Commission for the Modernization and Innovative Development of the Economy, which operated under the then President of Russia, Dmitry Medvedev . Xinwei has invested $780 million in the project, of which $660 million is the cost of equipment imported into Russia.

NSTT received frequencies in the 300 MHz and 1800 MHz bands (1785 - 1805 MHz). However, in 2016, the State Commission on Radio Frequencies ( SCRF ) withdrew frequencies in the 1800 MHz band from the company. The company tried to sue and reached the Supreme and Constitutional Courts, but to no avail .

At the same time, the company began to deploy a network in the 300 MHz band. In addition, the company developed its own GOST based on NG-1 technology, developed its own chip for radio stations, and launched their production at a plant in Tver . The NTTT declined to comment on the use of their network in the NWO area. A representative of the Kalashnikov concern did not respond to a request from CNews on this matter.

Expert opinions on the prospects of NG-1

“Since NCTT has set up the production of equipment in Russia, it is possible that military structures could purchase it,” one of the market participants interviewed by CNews believes. “Because the technology itself uses a rather low frequency band of 320 km, with a telescopic mast, it is possible to provide coverage in a radius of 20-50 km or even more.”

However, some experts are skeptical about the prospects of NG-1. “NG-1 is a dead end in the development of telecommunications ,” says another participant in the telecommunications market. “The project itself began to develop only because Xinwei delivered to Russia the telecommunications equipment it had accumulated and received tax incentives from the Chinese authorities for this.”
 
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RottenPanzer

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russian drone helps take out this border post. Israeli origin? I don't understand the title.

It's just meant "The Russians using Israeli origin drone manage to destroy Ukrainian border checkpoint and Ukrainian personnels"
 
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