Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Oh dear, this news must be conflicting for Chinese nationalists.

On the one hand, the defective parts were sourced from China. On the other hand suggesting that Chinese products are quality items so the problem is unlikely to be significant passes up an opportunity to criticise Taiwan.
The news is only conflicting in your own head. If Taiwan is such a cheapskate that it buys parts from shady sellers, that's its own fault not China's.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
The real question is why Taiwan needs to source their Sky Bow missile from China. That's embarrassing.
First, there are three different types of Sky Bow missile, not just one.

Second, Taiwan isn't sourcing any of the missiles from China. The design is indigenous and most parts are bought from elsewhere. A few businessmen thought they could make a quick buck by outsourcing some of their work to Chinese companies and pretending the parts had come from a different source. But they were found out last year by NCSIST.
Well of course the PRC will sell them inferior material. Imagine the quality of material the US would supply Russia if Russia purchased components used on strategic weapons systems from the US.
The US either allows sale of items used in military equipment or it does not. It doesn't have a policy of selling bad stuff to screw over other countries.

It's also improbable what the Chinese producer(s) knew what the components were needed for, because they'd be in serious trouble if the Chinese security services found out they were supplying even indirectly the Taiwanese military for something like air defence. Even asking permission to make deliberately bad parts would be a huge red flag, because the CCP would not know how defective the parts really were and whether they might end up being used somewhere in China - or damage China's reputation in export markets.

It's also highly unlike Chinese supplier would produce something specifically for the contract. More likely is that these were items available for general purpose on the Chinese/international market that were just low quality but cheap, hence why they were used. It's also why the middlemen had to change the origin of the parts. If the Chinese producers were part of the fraud, they'd have done it themselves.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
First, there are three different types of Sky Bow missile, not just one.

Second, Taiwan isn't sourcing any of the missiles from China. The design is indigenous and most parts are bought from elsewhere. A few businessmen thought they could make a quick buck by outsourcing some of their work to Chinese companies and pretending the parts had come from a different source. But they were found out last year by NCSIST.

The US either allows sale of items used in military equipment or it does not. It doesn't have a policy of selling bad stuff to screw over other countries.

It's also improbable what the Chinese producer(s) knew what the components were needed for, because they'd be in serious trouble if the Chinese security services found out they were supplying even indirectly the Taiwanese military for something like air defence. Even asking permission to make deliberately bad parts would be a huge red flag, because the CCP would not know how defective the parts really were and whether they might end up being used somewhere in China - or damage China's reputation in export markets.

It's also highly unlike Chinese supplier would produce something specifically for the contract. More likely is that these were items available for general purpose on the Chinese/international market that were just low quality but cheap, hence why they were used. It's also why the middlemen had to change the origin of the parts. If the Chinese producers were part of the fraud, they'd have done it themselves.
This is a more sensible response not to mention informative compared to your child like attempt at an insult or whatever it was you were attempting of doing with your prior comment.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
First, there are three different types of Sky Bow missile, not just one.

Okay thanks.

Second, Taiwan isn't sourcing any of the missiles from China. The design is indigenous and most parts are bought from elsewhere. A few businessmen thought they could make a quick buck by outsourcing some of their work to Chinese companies and pretending the parts had come from a different source. But they were found out last year by NCSIST.

I know. I was referring to sourcing some component of such a strategic weapon from the mainland. The businessman chose their supplier. Made a poor choice... if any of that is even true and NCSIST didn't provide any details on anything more than saying the material cannot be used on the Sky Bow missile.

The US either allows sale of items used in military equipment or it does not. It doesn't have a policy of selling bad stuff to screw over other countries.

No and no one has an official policy of this but many surely engage in it. The US included. Didn't the US sell compromised communications equipment to spy on their own allies?

It's also improbable what the Chinese producer(s) knew what the components were needed for, because they'd be in serious trouble if the Chinese security services found out they were supplying even indirectly the Taiwanese military for something like air defence. Even asking permission to make deliberately bad parts would be a huge red flag, because the CCP would not know how defective the parts really were and whether they might end up being used somewhere in China - or damage China's reputation in export markets.

Yes quite true. They probably didn't know how the customer was and there probably isn't an effort to intentionally supply something bad. I did caveat that and it wasn't the only thing... just mentioned as something to consider as remote as the chances of the intelligence community finding out and then pulling the intentional move off.

Rest of your reasoning I agree with. It is highly unlikely but something amusing to laugh about in a more light hearted conversation.

It's also highly unlike Chinese supplier would produce something specifically for the contract. More likely is that these were items available for general purpose on the Chinese/international market that were just low quality but cheap, hence why they were used. It's also why the middlemen had to change the origin of the parts. If the Chinese producers were part of the fraud, they'd have done it themselves.

Yes. This is absolutely the most likely scenario. I wonder who the contractors were (they were Taiwanese and that's almost certain) and why they didn't bother doing a proper job sourcing the required components and selected something from a supplier they didn't do any due diligence evaluating. I mean there are great Chinese producers and fraudulent ones. I suspect they simply looked at whoever offered the cheapest price and without even bothering to commit and engineering talent on evaluating the supplier and the product, they went ahead with it.

Or they simply made an error in understanding the Taiwanese military's own requirement. As in they did perform due diligence but it wasn't so much a failure of evaluation but a failure of understanding their own missile system's engineering requirements.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is a more sensible response not to mention informative compared to your child like attempt at an insult or whatever it was you were attempting of doing with your prior comment.

Absolutely right. Mr T occasionally DOES engage in respectful and honest discussion held in good faith. I have said that in the past :p although this aint always the case ... sorry ;) :D

Anyway it's quite an amusing story but all too common in the business world. What's interesting and worth knowing is whether the error was simply a consequence of incompetent and greedy contractor from Taiwan or just a misunderstanding between the contractor and the developer of the missile. For example, a certain sub-section (that ended up being sourced from some mainland supplier) requires a specific grade of steel and that wasn't communicated clearly enough to the Taiwanese contractor in question.

Although the nature of the investigation seems to indicate the former.

If I contract my brother to build me a backyard treehouse and he goes to a budget grocery store to buy the building material - discarded cardboard, I shouldn't really be blaming the grocery store lol. This is basically what happened and my other post alluded to how pitiful the state of Taiwanese defence contracting and procurement is. They're sourcing the wrong sort of stuff from the wrong sort of suppliers and their contractors should be held accountable ... which is what Taiwan seems to be doing in this case anyway.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Oh dear, this news must be conflicting for Chinese nationalists.
No, we know that Chinese parts make the world go round.
On the one hand, the defective parts were sourced from China. On the other hand suggesting that Chinese products are quality items so the problem is unlikely to be significant passes up an opportunity to criticise Taiwan.
Chinese missiles don't have problems and that's all that matters. Buy the cheapest parts a child can find for a missile?? That just shows how much they care. The PLA doesn't buy its parts from random internet dealers cus we depend on them to work.
Chinese nationalists: "Error! Conflict - error! BZZZ! BZZZ! BZZZ! Beoooop."
Funny, I didn't hear those sounds from any Chinese nationalists... unless you consider yourself one. I'm hearing them right now coming out from a Brit as he and the West has trouble processing China's rise.
Anyway, it looks like the problem was found before any/many missiles were built, so no real harm done in the end. Although I doubt the contracting companies in question are going to have a nice next couple of years.
Doesn't matter in the end, "harm" or no "harm". Nothing the ROC was made to fight anyway.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Oh dear, this news must be conflicting for Chinese nationalists.

On the one hand, the defective parts were sourced from China. On the other hand suggesting that Chinese products are quality items so the problem is unlikely to be significant passes up an opportunity to criticise Taiwan.

Chinese nationalists: "Error! Conflict - error! BZZZ! BZZZ! BZZZ! Beoooop."

Anyway, it looks like the problem was found before any/many missiles were built, so no real harm done in the end. Although I doubt the contracting companies in question are going to have a nice next couple of years.

Those parts weren’t military grade and not intended for use in a missile though. It’s like using dollar store nuts and bolts intended for a tractor and putting them inside a Maserati.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
Those parts weren’t military grade and not intended for use in a missile though. It’s like using dollar store nuts and bolts intended for a tractor and putting them inside a Maserati.
This is the supply chain equivalent of a 419 scam.

The email (or parts in this case) is so atrociously unqualified that only the most stupid mark (or supplier) will actually buy and use them.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Oh dear, this news must be conflicting for Chinese nationalists.

On the one hand, the defective parts were sourced from China. On the other hand suggesting that Chinese products are quality items so the problem is unlikely to be significant passes up an opportunity to criticise Taiwan.

Chinese nationalists: "Error! Conflict - error! BZZZ! BZZZ! BZZZ! Beoooop."

Anyway, it looks like the problem was found before any/many missiles were built, so no real harm done in the end. Although I doubt the contracting companies in question are going to have a nice next couple of years.

Dude why do you even bother writing something like this when you know you are making a poor argument and when you are going to get rightfully dogpiled for it.

No one believes that "literally every product made in China is fit for weapons grade quality," because the whole point of being the world's largest manufacturing nation is that every price point that the customer requires can be met, and that it is the responsibility of the customer to make sure they are sourcing it from the right contractor and paying the right amount of money for the desired type of product.


It should be far more concerning that these missiles somehow managed to have any Chinese subcomponents in them in the first place, which you'd think would have some kind of national security policy in place to prevent it from happening.... Which incidentally is exactly what the original posts above are mentioning.


Sometimes there is certain news which cannot be reasonably reverse-uno'd into an "ackchually this is owning the other side" and it is better just to ignore it and pretend you didn't see it.
 
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