PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Re: Anti-Carrier Trump Card
Sorry Jeff. The USN has already started to decomission it's S-3B squadrons and is replacing their ASW mission with more SH-60's provided by 4 plane HSL detatchments on CV's. Don't forget P-3's are always on patrol. E-2C's extend the ablity of the CSG to find most anything.
Keep thinking that. The USN constantly trains on sub hunting technics. If you only knew.
Excellent question Totoro. The USAF has tactical assets deploying on a rotational basis to Guam. F-15's,B-1's B-52's & tankers. There are F-15's & F-16's in Okinawa, Japan and Korea. The USN has the Kitty Hawk strike group in Japan. There will always be one other CSG deployed in the Pacific or Indian Ocean . There will be one CSG preparing(in training) to deploy. And one more in a surge deploymnet status. The one in training and work ups is also in surge deployment status.
So I would say the USAF assest would be availabe in 48-72 hours. The Kitty Hawk CSG would move to the area immediatley and be on station within 72 hours of leaving Japan. Probaly sooner. The CSG on deployment would arrive within one week depending on where it was located when the crisis arose. As for the 2 CSG deploying from the west coast of the US it would take at least 10 days after deploying to get on station..
As some of you may know last year the USN deployed 7 CSG at once in an operation called Summer Pulse.
Sorry Jeff. The USN has already started to decomission it's S-3B squadrons and is replacing their ASW mission with more SH-60's provided by 4 plane HSL detatchments on CV's. Don't forget P-3's are always on patrol. E-2C's extend the ablity of the CSG to find most anything.
Keep thinking that. The USN constantly trains on sub hunting technics. If you only knew.
Excellent question Totoro. The USAF has tactical assets deploying on a rotational basis to Guam. F-15's,B-1's B-52's & tankers. There are F-15's & F-16's in Okinawa, Japan and Korea. The USN has the Kitty Hawk strike group in Japan. There will always be one other CSG deployed in the Pacific or Indian Ocean . There will be one CSG preparing(in training) to deploy. And one more in a surge deploymnet status. The one in training and work ups is also in surge deployment status.
So I would say the USAF assest would be availabe in 48-72 hours. The Kitty Hawk CSG would move to the area immediatley and be on station within 72 hours of leaving Japan. Probaly sooner. The CSG on deployment would arrive within one week depending on where it was located when the crisis arose. As for the 2 CSG deploying from the west coast of the US it would take at least 10 days after deploying to get on station..
As some of you may know last year the USN deployed 7 CSG at once in an operation called Summer Pulse.
Re: Anti-Carrier Trump Card
I am afraid it will turn into the sub-surface version of the Marinas Turkey Shoot if they try that...they will find the mings, the romeos, and the Kilos and Yuans.
Using several very capable escorts, ten or twenty ASW aicraft, and four to six very capable and advanced subs...the US Navy will clean the path of the carriers. If the PLAN subs are the path, they will be found by all the active sonar buoys, MAD, and electronic gear possesed by all of those assets.
If the diesel electrics are not right in that path, they will not have the speed to catch and target the carrier...and if they try they will make enough noise to be found by the escorts and aircraft along the sides and flanks of the carrier group.
I believe that is what popeye is talking about.
I am afraid it will turn into the sub-surface version of the Marinas Turkey Shoot if they try that...they will find the mings, the romeos, and the Kilos and Yuans.
Using several very capable escorts, ten or twenty ASW aicraft, and four to six very capable and advanced subs...the US Navy will clean the path of the carriers. If the PLAN subs are the path, they will be found by all the active sonar buoys, MAD, and electronic gear possesed by all of those assets.
If the diesel electrics are not right in that path, they will not have the speed to catch and target the carrier...and if they try they will make enough noise to be found by the escorts and aircraft along the sides and flanks of the carrier group.
I believe that is what popeye is talking about.
Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?
Gentlemen I don't know about joint excersises but I know some USN ships have made port calls to the PRC. My son's former ship the USS Paul F Foster DD-964 made a port visit to Qingdao in Nov '02. Also the 7th Fleet flagship the USS Blue Ridge LCC-19 visited the PRC a few months ago. I'm sure there were some friendly exchanges.
USS Paul F. Foster visits Qingdao, China
USS Paul F. Foster public affairs
Posted 11/25/2002
QINGDAO, China -- USS Paul F. Foster (DD 964) arrived here Nov. 24, becoming the first U.S. Navy ship to visit mainland China since March 2001.
The Spruance class destroyer's visit signals the beginning of several military-to-military exchanges with China planned to take place over the coming months and is evidence of progress made by the administration’s continued improvement in the Sino-American relationship.
Foster's commanding officer, Cmdr. Chuck Nygaard, is scheduled to meet with Vice Adm. Ding Yi Ping, China's Commander, North Sea Fleet, and also the Mayor of Quingdao.
According to Nygaard, the visit is of particular importance in the developing relationship between the two country’s navies.
"Anytime you bring together the navies of two great nations it’s a significant event,†he said. “We value this opportunity to visit such an important Navy port, and we are looking forward to enjoying some great hospitality by our Chinese hosts.â€
Lt. Cmdr. Mike Brown, U.S. Navy spokesman for Battle Force Seventh Fleet, confirmed that Foster has been participating in recent battle group exercises and said this port call is a method of further developing mutual respect between the U.S. and Chinese navies.
"Although the USS Blue Ridge [LCC 19] visited Shanghai last year, this is the first visit to Qingdao since the USS Chancellorsville's [CG 62] visit in August 2000." Brown said "Everyone benefits from a port call like this one because it promotes greater understanding between our two navies and it's fun for the Sailors too."
Forward deployed from Everett, Washington, more than one-third of Foster's Sailors have scheduled a trip to the Great Wall of China and various other sightseeing locations, affording the crew an opportunity to interact with local citizens. Also while in Qingdao, the crew plans to enjoy recreational activities such as a basketball game and tug-o-war contest with the Chinese Sailors, boosting morale between the two nations’ maritime forces.
The Foster is a highly versatile multi-mission destroyer, capable of operating either independently or with amphibious assault and aircraft carrier task forces with primary missions including, the prosecution of both surface and subsurface threats. As a strike platform, Foster is equipped with long-range Tomahawk cruise missiles to attack land targets. Foster's other offensive assets include Harpoon anti-ship missiles, five-inch guns, and ship or helicopter launched torpedoes.
Foster is approximately 563 feet long, travels over 30 knots and has a displacement of 9,200 tons. The ship has a complement of nearly 320 crewmembers and has been in service for 27 years. The ship is completing a six-month deployment and is scheduled for decommissioning in March 2003
Gentlemen I don't know about joint excersises but I know some USN ships have made port calls to the PRC. My son's former ship the USS Paul F Foster DD-964 made a port visit to Qingdao in Nov '02. Also the 7th Fleet flagship the USS Blue Ridge LCC-19 visited the PRC a few months ago. I'm sure there were some friendly exchanges.
USS Paul F. Foster visits Qingdao, China
USS Paul F. Foster public affairs
Posted 11/25/2002
QINGDAO, China -- USS Paul F. Foster (DD 964) arrived here Nov. 24, becoming the first U.S. Navy ship to visit mainland China since March 2001.
The Spruance class destroyer's visit signals the beginning of several military-to-military exchanges with China planned to take place over the coming months and is evidence of progress made by the administration’s continued improvement in the Sino-American relationship.
Foster's commanding officer, Cmdr. Chuck Nygaard, is scheduled to meet with Vice Adm. Ding Yi Ping, China's Commander, North Sea Fleet, and also the Mayor of Quingdao.
According to Nygaard, the visit is of particular importance in the developing relationship between the two country’s navies.
"Anytime you bring together the navies of two great nations it’s a significant event,†he said. “We value this opportunity to visit such an important Navy port, and we are looking forward to enjoying some great hospitality by our Chinese hosts.â€
Lt. Cmdr. Mike Brown, U.S. Navy spokesman for Battle Force Seventh Fleet, confirmed that Foster has been participating in recent battle group exercises and said this port call is a method of further developing mutual respect between the U.S. and Chinese navies.
"Although the USS Blue Ridge [LCC 19] visited Shanghai last year, this is the first visit to Qingdao since the USS Chancellorsville's [CG 62] visit in August 2000." Brown said "Everyone benefits from a port call like this one because it promotes greater understanding between our two navies and it's fun for the Sailors too."
Forward deployed from Everett, Washington, more than one-third of Foster's Sailors have scheduled a trip to the Great Wall of China and various other sightseeing locations, affording the crew an opportunity to interact with local citizens. Also while in Qingdao, the crew plans to enjoy recreational activities such as a basketball game and tug-o-war contest with the Chinese Sailors, boosting morale between the two nations’ maritime forces.
The Foster is a highly versatile multi-mission destroyer, capable of operating either independently or with amphibious assault and aircraft carrier task forces with primary missions including, the prosecution of both surface and subsurface threats. As a strike platform, Foster is equipped with long-range Tomahawk cruise missiles to attack land targets. Foster's other offensive assets include Harpoon anti-ship missiles, five-inch guns, and ship or helicopter launched torpedoes.
Foster is approximately 563 feet long, travels over 30 knots and has a displacement of 9,200 tons. The ship has a complement of nearly 320 crewmembers and has been in service for 27 years. The ship is completing a six-month deployment and is scheduled for decommissioning in March 2003
Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?
Yes...there are port calls and friendly visits and exchanges. I agree whole heartidly with that and it is normal.
But that is a far cry from joint exercises where line officers are onboard our AEGIS cruisers during those exercises...which did occur in the 90's.
My point is that I do not believe that type of thing is going on now. The other, port calls and friendly visists, is occurring and should be encouraged on both sides IMHO.
Yes...there are port calls and friendly visits and exchanges. I agree whole heartidly with that and it is normal.
But that is a far cry from joint exercises where line officers are onboard our AEGIS cruisers during those exercises...which did occur in the 90's.
My point is that I do not believe that type of thing is going on now. The other, port calls and friendly visists, is occurring and should be encouraged on both sides IMHO.
Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA
The Paris peace talks started in '68 true enough. But about the first year or so was spent trying to decide the shape and size of the table used for the discussions.
The US government was tired of the war. Us populace was also. Anti war protest at home in the US were ongoing. Years before Pres. Nixon decided to implement "Vietnamzation" of the war. That is giving S. Vietnamese forces more of the brunt of the fighting.
In my opinion to force the North into some real peace negoiations the US launched Operation Linebacker II. And nearly bombed N.Vietnam into oblivion. This article does not mention it but the USN had six CVA's off the coast of the North flying around the clock missions over N. Vietnam bombing anything and everything.. In the wake of these attacks the North decided to "negoiate"(save it's ass) with the US and S. Vietnamese. As Totoro posted so well..they lied. They had no intention of honoring the agreement.
Never heard of Operation Linebacker II??? Check it out.
Operation Linebacker II
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Note: The term "Christmas Day Bombings" is misleading. Operation Linebacker II began on December 18 and ended on December 29, but sorties were only flown on 11 of these days; bombing was halted on Christmas.
The Christmas Day Bombings in late December, 1972, codenamed Operation Linebacker II, were the heaviest bomber strikes of the Vietnam War, ordered by US President Nixon against North Vietnamese Army forces in North Vietnam and Laos.
Some 200 American B-52s armed with 750-pound unguided bombs launched airstrikes against Hanoi and Haiphong with devastating results. The North Vietnamese fired most, if not all, of their SAM missiles and 15 Air Force B-52s were shot down in the operation. Privately, the administration knew that the Christmas Bombings could not continue indefinitely.
The war was a legacy Nixon had inherited from his three immediate predecessors, Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson. Nixon had previously tried to "end US involvement in Vietnam," but saw the government of South Vietnam as uninterested in peace and taking the US defense forces for granted. The escalated bombing attacks were to serve as a demonstration of the destructiveness of the war, in the hopes of forcing the South Vietnamese government back to peace talks with North Vietnam.
The bombings also were protested around the world, as people began to pressure their respective governments to officially condemn them. The United Kingdom and Italy did so, but other European countries maintained their silence. Some elements in the Western media were alleged to have misreported the extent of damage done in Hanoi and Haiphong; thus, contributing to the anti-war unrest.
Nixon claimed that the bombings were successful in the short term, and the Paris Peace Accords were signed on January 27, 1973, ending US involvement in Vietnam and completing the so-called "Vietnamization" of the war. Hanoi maintained that the bombings did not influence their peace decision. There are two different opinions about the real effect of the bombings on the government of North Vietnam:
Some believe that the North Vietnamese were afraid of an even larger air campaign against North Vietnam's dikes or even the use of nuclear weapons.
Others believe that China would have tolerated neither nuclear attacks nor American ground forces in North Vietnam without entering the war against the United States. Avoiding conflict with China was an important goal of the American government. Indeed, Nixon's nuclear threats were just posturing. He called it the madman theory, saying "I want the North Vietnamese to believe I've reached the point where I might do anything to stop the war."
The campaign was marked by top-down planning from Strategic Air Command (SAC) headquarters, Omaha, Nebraska. SAC's initial plans had all B-52s approaching Hanoi in three discrete waves per night, using identical approach paths at the same altitude. Once planes had dropped their bombs, they were to execute what SAC called "post-target turns" to the west. These turns had two unfortunate effects for the B-52s:
The B-52s would be turning into a strong headwind, slowing their ground speed by 100 knots (185 km/h) and prolonging their stay in the target area;
The turn would point the emitter antennas for the B-52s' electronic warfare (EW) systems away from the radars they were attempting to jam, as well as showing the largest radar cross-section to the (now unjammed) radars.
Additionally, the aircraft employed had significantly different EW capabilities; the B-52G carried fewer jammers and put out significantly less power than the B-52Ds.
The combination of stereotyped tactics, degraded EW systems, and limited jamming capacity led to the loss of five aircraft on night three (20 December 1972). The commander of the B-52 wing at U-Tapao, Thailand sent a message to SAC headquarters that sharply criticized SAC's tactics and control of the operation. SAC turned planning over to 8th Air Force headquarters on Guam, then ensured that the U-Tapao commander was not mentioned in the official history of the operation.
On December 26, 1972, the new tactics came into play: instead of multiple waves, all bombers would be in and out of the Hanoi area within 20 minutes, and would approach Hanoi from multiple directions. The steep post-target turns were eliminated. The North Vietnamese air defense system, though still capable, was overwhelmed by the number of aircraft to track in a short period of time and a dense blanket of chaff that was laid down by 7th Air Force fighter-bombers.
The peace talks between North and South Vietnam would dissolve. The NVA secured South Vietnam in 1975, unifying Vietnam under communist rule.
The Paris peace talks started in '68 true enough. But about the first year or so was spent trying to decide the shape and size of the table used for the discussions.
The US government was tired of the war. Us populace was also. Anti war protest at home in the US were ongoing. Years before Pres. Nixon decided to implement "Vietnamzation" of the war. That is giving S. Vietnamese forces more of the brunt of the fighting.
In my opinion to force the North into some real peace negoiations the US launched Operation Linebacker II. And nearly bombed N.Vietnam into oblivion. This article does not mention it but the USN had six CVA's off the coast of the North flying around the clock missions over N. Vietnam bombing anything and everything.. In the wake of these attacks the North decided to "negoiate"(save it's ass) with the US and S. Vietnamese. As Totoro posted so well..they lied. They had no intention of honoring the agreement.
Never heard of Operation Linebacker II??? Check it out.
Operation Linebacker II
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Note: The term "Christmas Day Bombings" is misleading. Operation Linebacker II began on December 18 and ended on December 29, but sorties were only flown on 11 of these days; bombing was halted on Christmas.
The Christmas Day Bombings in late December, 1972, codenamed Operation Linebacker II, were the heaviest bomber strikes of the Vietnam War, ordered by US President Nixon against North Vietnamese Army forces in North Vietnam and Laos.
Some 200 American B-52s armed with 750-pound unguided bombs launched airstrikes against Hanoi and Haiphong with devastating results. The North Vietnamese fired most, if not all, of their SAM missiles and 15 Air Force B-52s were shot down in the operation. Privately, the administration knew that the Christmas Bombings could not continue indefinitely.
The war was a legacy Nixon had inherited from his three immediate predecessors, Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson. Nixon had previously tried to "end US involvement in Vietnam," but saw the government of South Vietnam as uninterested in peace and taking the US defense forces for granted. The escalated bombing attacks were to serve as a demonstration of the destructiveness of the war, in the hopes of forcing the South Vietnamese government back to peace talks with North Vietnam.
The bombings also were protested around the world, as people began to pressure their respective governments to officially condemn them. The United Kingdom and Italy did so, but other European countries maintained their silence. Some elements in the Western media were alleged to have misreported the extent of damage done in Hanoi and Haiphong; thus, contributing to the anti-war unrest.
Nixon claimed that the bombings were successful in the short term, and the Paris Peace Accords were signed on January 27, 1973, ending US involvement in Vietnam and completing the so-called "Vietnamization" of the war. Hanoi maintained that the bombings did not influence their peace decision. There are two different opinions about the real effect of the bombings on the government of North Vietnam:
Some believe that the North Vietnamese were afraid of an even larger air campaign against North Vietnam's dikes or even the use of nuclear weapons.
Others believe that China would have tolerated neither nuclear attacks nor American ground forces in North Vietnam without entering the war against the United States. Avoiding conflict with China was an important goal of the American government. Indeed, Nixon's nuclear threats were just posturing. He called it the madman theory, saying "I want the North Vietnamese to believe I've reached the point where I might do anything to stop the war."
The campaign was marked by top-down planning from Strategic Air Command (SAC) headquarters, Omaha, Nebraska. SAC's initial plans had all B-52s approaching Hanoi in three discrete waves per night, using identical approach paths at the same altitude. Once planes had dropped their bombs, they were to execute what SAC called "post-target turns" to the west. These turns had two unfortunate effects for the B-52s:
The B-52s would be turning into a strong headwind, slowing their ground speed by 100 knots (185 km/h) and prolonging their stay in the target area;
The turn would point the emitter antennas for the B-52s' electronic warfare (EW) systems away from the radars they were attempting to jam, as well as showing the largest radar cross-section to the (now unjammed) radars.
Additionally, the aircraft employed had significantly different EW capabilities; the B-52G carried fewer jammers and put out significantly less power than the B-52Ds.
The combination of stereotyped tactics, degraded EW systems, and limited jamming capacity led to the loss of five aircraft on night three (20 December 1972). The commander of the B-52 wing at U-Tapao, Thailand sent a message to SAC headquarters that sharply criticized SAC's tactics and control of the operation. SAC turned planning over to 8th Air Force headquarters on Guam, then ensured that the U-Tapao commander was not mentioned in the official history of the operation.
On December 26, 1972, the new tactics came into play: instead of multiple waves, all bombers would be in and out of the Hanoi area within 20 minutes, and would approach Hanoi from multiple directions. The steep post-target turns were eliminated. The North Vietnamese air defense system, though still capable, was overwhelmed by the number of aircraft to track in a short period of time and a dense blanket of chaff that was laid down by 7th Air Force fighter-bombers.
The peace talks between North and South Vietnam would dissolve. The NVA secured South Vietnam in 1975, unifying Vietnam under communist rule.