PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

Totoro said:

I'm just wondering, how many more helicopters than 4500 and how many more planes than 3000 should have been lost in order for us to be able to say it was a military loss, compared to north vietnamese high tech losses? Also, how much money was spent in that war by US and how much by north vietnamese?

Click to expand...

Totoro, total numbers do not equal a military loss. Battles do. Territory held. Just how many major battles did the US lose in Vietnam? What major headquaters were surerendured to the North? You tell me. If you think the US military lost just when did the US surrender? You tell me. But you won't be able to. Because it never happened. The policy of the US did lose. Resoundlingy. That's for sure. There are some excellent post by Raven on that subject. Myself and Jeff also.

Of course the US out spent the North Vietnamese during the war.

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

I do not believe they perform hardly any night time activity...compared to 24 hour operation capability on the decks of US carriers.

Click to expand...

That is so true. Some months ago the Russian carrier Kuznetsov put to sea for two weeks. The Russians planned 40 takeoffs..I assume the same number of landings in a two week period. 40 launches and recoveries? A USN CV does that many during the first 4 hous of a normal operating day.



The Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov left the port of
Murmansk on March 23 to carry out military exercises in the north
Atlantic, Russian news reports said.

For two weeks, the Admiral Kuznetsov will implement a series of
military exercises involving the airplanes on board, ITAR-TASS
quoted the Russian Navy chief-of-command as saying.

More than 40 takeoffs are scheduled to take place during the
exercises.

The Admiral Kuznetsov went into active service in 1993. It is 302
{906ft} meters long, weighs 55,000 tons, can reach a speed of 30
knots and can carry up to 36 planes, 16 helicopters and 1,960 men.

The aircraft carrier last went into the open sea in November 2004.

Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

But what i'm saying is this: US military was much stronger than north vietnam, from the start. Way more planes/ships/soldiers. No one in the world, especially not US expected the military losses to be what they ended up being. Is it a lesser victory if you lose 500 planes to destroy 300 enemy planes than if you lose planes 1 for 1? If so, when does the number cross the line where you can't talk about victory but of a defeat? From my first entry i have been talking about a pyrric victory. US suffered a political defeat but even its military 'non-loss' was very, very costly and ultimately a pointless waste.

If you send a force to do a job, it can be victorious only if it does that job. If somehow US could have looked into future and known it'd have to retreat, then it'd have been better they didn't send even one soldier to vietnam. But they did. They sent tons, and huge numbers of equipment and those all died/were lost in vain. It was more or less a pure waste, because of the political decision to retreat.

Especially because it is clear it was a political defeat and all we've got left is military aspect, quantifying the gains/losses is important. And when you do that, when you quantify the american losses versus north vietnamese losses, US is defeated. If by holding the area and never techincally losing a battle US had gained something in the long term - then yeah, it'd be worth something. But because of ultimately losing the area due to politics, we're left with just numbers vs numbers. And then, what good is it temporarely holding an area if you suffered bigger losses than the enemy in order to hold the area in the first place? Bragging rights? I'd say north vietnam had more to brag about bringing down so many US aircraft.

So yes, US military didn't lose. but its non-loss (not to say victory) was a VERY pyrric one.

Re: My trip to the US Navy Reserve Fleet in Bremerton, WA

Totoro sez..""So yes, US military didn't lose. but its non-loss (not to say victory) was a VERY pyrric one""

100% correct. Thank you!

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

well, the chinese can get the french to help them with carrier tactics for 24 hour op. if the chinese put a carrier in service by 08, they should get it working to potential by 2010-2012. maybe they will send a few sailors and pilots to trai with the russians.

Re: Anti-Carrier Trump Card

Jeff Head said:

Or the new Yuan or Kilos.

...and only then if the US Navy happened to run into where they were hiding and waiting. Those diesel electrics are excellent litoral water vessels...but on the high seas east of Taiwn where the CBGs would be operating, they are too slow to keep up with the CBGs and if they tried to go up to any higher speed operations, I believe they would be found and killed IMHO.

So, the USN will have to stay out to sea a good ways, which will work fine for carrier aircraft ops, and they will have to do a heck of a job with ASW subs, vessels, and aircraft, cleaning the path of the CBG of any lurking diesel electrics on the high seas.

That will be the key and I believe the USN will be able to saturate the ASW environment enough in front of the path of the carrier to do so. Do you think such an effort would currently discover the modern diesel electrics?

Click to expand...

the diesels dont follow the cvbg, the wait for it, with engines at very low power. add a few mings to fog up the somar, and the cvbg will have a tough time hearing them.

Re: Anti-Carrier Trump Card

Agreed that this will be the strategy...which is why I said that it only works if the CBG runs into where the DE is waiting.

But its a big ocean there west of the ROC and the chances for that, unless the PLAN has literally dozens of these new subs are reduced.

The US Navy knows this too and will certainly saturate the forward path of the carrier with very effective ASW assets...very capable subs, aircraft and surface vessels hunting for the PLAN DEs.

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

MIGleader said:

well, the chinese can get the french to help them with carrier tactics for 24 hour op.

Click to expand...

The French are not that much better thatn the Russinas, though I will admit their operations are more proficient and they have more experience having plowed the waves with a couple of medium sized carriers for years..

But, to date, no one performs carrier ops like the USN...no one. For the PLAN to get up to that level of proficiency, it will take decades, just as it has taken the US Navy...and the US Navy has gained that level of proficiency over those years with a dozen or more carriers operating.

Just saying this to show the relative amount of experience required to get where the US Navy is. That is probably not the PLAN's intention in any case.

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

bd popeye said:

That is so true.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov left the port of
Murmansk on March 23 to carry out military exercises in the north
Atlantic, Russian news reports said.

More than 40 takeoffs are scheduled to take place during the
exercises.

Click to expand...

Thanks popeye, that was exactly the exercises I was referring to but did not have a link to the story.

Re: What will the 1st PLAN Carrier Battle Group (CBG) look like?

Jeff Head said:

The French are not that much better thatn the Russinas, though I will admit their operations are more proficient and they have more experience having plowed the waves with a couple of medium sized carriers for years..

But, to date, no one performs carrier ops like the USN...no one. For the PLAN to get up to that level of proficiency, it will take decades, just as it has taken the US Navy...and the US Navy has gained that level of proficiency over those years with a dozen or more carriers operating.

Just saying this to show the relative amount of experience required to get where the US Navy is. That is probably not the PLAN's intention in any case.

Click to expand...

military exchanges are not uncommon between china and u.s. the chinese might send a crew to train on a u.s carrier, and the u.s might send a crew to check out china's subs.