Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle said:

China had occupied black and helmet top in August. Those have been on China's side since 62

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Yes in August as you claim while the evidence (visual ones) confirmed it only after September. So during March to August (possibly later) PLA was NOT on Black Top and Helmet Top. If it had intention to capture India peaks WEST of those two, how come PLA didn't do it between March and August/September?

How come PLA never stepped foot beyond Black Top and Helmet Top before August? In fact not even to those peaks until August?

Somehow India claims this is evidence for PLA's imminent invasion into India's side of LAC and those peaks on India's side. Therefore India "capturing" its own peaks is a win for India. Makes sense.

ougoah said:

It's another he said she said. India has taken the liberty to claim for China what China intended to do even though none of the evidence supports the Indian claims and all the evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt that China did not wish to stoke up south of lake tensions. But india did intrude into China's side on the south. The proposed reason was to capture land to bargain with for northern sector. That Indian mission failed because they didn't realise that they needed to hold onto the east reqin land they actually captured and that DEW exist and can be used for A2AD.

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You literally haven't provided any evidence. Just GT claims contradicted by official Indian Army statements and reputable journalists.

ougoah said:

Yes in August as you claim while the evidence (visual ones) confirmed it only after September. So during March to August (possibly later) PLA was NOT on Black Top and Helmet Top. If it had intention to capture India peaks WEST of those two, how come PLA didn't do it between March and August/September?

How come PLA never stepped foot beyond Black Top and Helmet Top before August? In fact not even to those peaks until August?

Somehow India claims this is evidence for PLA's imminent invasion into India's side of LAC and those peaks on India's side. Therefore India "capturing" its own peaks is a win for India. Makes sense.

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The Indian Army launched its operations near Black Top because of PLA's activity on those peaks.

twineedle said:

You literally haven't provided any evidence. Just GT claims contradicted by official Indian Army statements and reputable journalists.

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That's like flat earther asking an engineer to prove the world is round and take up on the prize money. Nothing is going to qualify. I can't show you the full event in real time. No one can. We can work with what has been put out there and evaluate everything and think them through properly.

Like I said. This is something there is plenty of evidence for. Chinese side officially saying this is something. Of course India won't say "yes we intruded into China's side". They wanted to capture Chinese controlled (but no PLA present) land to bargain with for Chinese held land within 20% on the northern end. This is spread by indian media as well. Indian gov didn't refute it (show me where it has). At this time, Indian military leaked some videos showing Indian soldiers celebrating a capturing of Chinese land. This isn't no smoke without fire, this is India's narrative ablaze. Not a single foreign observer and agency refuted or Challenged such a grand statement and claim from China. If it were untrue, they would have. They pick at every little thing but these they know is true and China has evidence for.

If you want to choose to ignore this and let's suppose that IA never ventured into China's side of LAC, then so what? It still doesn't take away from the fact that Indian army said that Indian army "captured" Indian peaks which Indian army says PLA wants to capture. Like seriously? This much? Let's remember this is the main point. India claiming that China wants to capture its peaks on its side when China was nowhere near them and haven't made a move on anything in the south and had no presence for 5 to 6 months until after someone started opening this southern front and during that time was gloating about it.

ougoah said:

That's like flat earther asking an engineer to prove the world is round and take up on the prize money. Nothing is going to qualify. I can't show you the full event in real time. No one can. We can work with what has been put out there and evaluate everything and think them through properly.

Like I said. This is something there is plenty of evidence for. Chinese side officially saying this is something. Of course India won't say "yes we intruded into China's side". They wanted to capture Chinese controlled (but no PLA present) land to bargain with for Chinese held land within 20% on the northern end. This is spread by indian media as well. Indian gov didn't refute it (show me where it has). At this time, Indian military leaked some videos showing Indian soldiers celebrating a capturing of Chinese land. This isn't no smoke without fire, this is India's narrative ablaze. Not a single foreign observer and agency refuted or Challenged such a grand statement and claim from China. If it were untrue, they would have. They pick at every little thing but these they know is true and China has evidence for.

If you want to choose to ignore this and let's suppose that IA never ventured into China's side of LAC, then so what? It still doesn't take away from the fact that Indian army said that Indian army "captured" Indian peaks which Indian army says PLA wants to capture. Like seriously? This much?

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Those videos weren't leaked by the military but by a resident of Chushul. Many of the local residents assist the Indian Army as porters. Your whole arguement is that a video of Tibetan soldiers dancing has to be on captured Chinese land, even though you haven't conclusively geolocated the video.

I have already shown you clear Indian Army statements refuting your assertions, as well as credible sources showing the Indian
perspective. None of them support your claims.

The fact is india did intrude into Chinese territory and occupy vast areas for five months. However, all of that area was within the Indian perception of the LAC. As Dr. Fravel's maps showed, there is a big difference in perception between India and China South of Pangong Tso just like in the north. For five months GT complained about India occupying its territory in south pangong but couldn't do anything, so it ultimately capitulated to India and retreated from Pangong, restoring Status Quo Ante.

Just look up PDF and India Defence forums during late August and early September. All the links and material are still there if they are still working links. There are pages and many threads on "India has captured Chinese land!" "AHAHAHA CCP crrrrrrying!" nonsense and shortly after they got shown the door and the jai hind noise died down. All the noise comes from Jai Hind keyboard warriors all over the English speaking internet. Even every Chinese publications is swamped with Indian trolls. So much for Chinese trolls. At least on this forum, it isn't a pure defecation festival and we attempt to weed out the more ridiculous Indian trolls.

The irony is the Indians troll and dwell in their delusions while their reality and their humanity is eroded like it never has been in its history.

ougoah said:

Just look up PDF and India Defence forums during late August and early September. All the links and material are still there if they are still working links. There are pages and many threads on "India has captured Chinese land!" "AHAHAHA CCP crrrrrrying!" nonsense and shortly after they got shown the door and the jai hind noise died down. All the noise comes from Jai Hind keyboard warriors all over the English speaking internet. Even every Chinese publications is swamped with Indian trolls. So much for Chinese trolls. At least on this forum, it isn't a pure defecation festival and we attempt to weed out the more ridiculous Indian trolls.

The irony is the Indians troll and dwell in their delusions while their reality and their humanity is eroded like it never has been in its history.

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Are you actually using PDF as a standard? I hope you see some(not all) of the Pakistani posters. They can easily match Indian trolls.

yes, I agree, Sinodefence forum does have decent moderation.

Glad you don't consider me to be to me a "more ridiculous troll" Guess I will take that as a compliment.

twineedle said:

Are you actually using PDF as a standard? I hope you see some(not all) of the Pakistani posters. They can easily match Indian trolls.

yes, I agree, Sinodefence forum does have decent moderation.

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No I am not using PDF as a standard or DFI (which you ignored to mention ) but proposing a look to see how the Indian hired and chauvinist trolls were promoting this very story when it seems like they gained something and more importantly for all the links and tweets etc. Sure Indian media and tweets are not reliable as "we've" been saying. But combine those with the fact that CCP officially said this and many of those Indian social media tweets etc sharing those videos... of Indian soldiers not Tibetan civilians or ethnic Tibetans who are residing in India.

Those tweets etc from Indians were very desperate for anything that resembles wins. The entire nation was desperate for them and when one seems like it was there, they took it and ran with it. In that case, it is quite likely true since Chinese state itself said this happened and Indian state did not refute or challenge what the Chinese officially said.

ougoah said:

No I am not using PDF as a standard or DFI (which you ignored to mention ) but proposing a look to see how the Indian hired and chauvinist trolls were promoting this very story when it seems like they gained something and more importantly for all the links and tweets etc. Sure Indian media and tweets are not reliable as "we've" been saying. But combine those with the fact that CCP officially said this and many of those Indian social media tweets etc sharing those videos... of Indian soldiers not Tibetan civilians or ethnic Tibetans who are residing in India.

Those tweets etc from Indians were very desperate for anything that resembles wins. The entire nation was desperate for them and when one seems like it was there, they took it and ran with it. In that case, it is quite likely true since Chinese state itself said this happened and Indian state did not refute or challenge what the Chinese officially said.

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But I have shown you some credible Indian media quoting Indian Army sources, which you discounted because they went against your narrative in favor of unverified tweets

What happened was India did intrude into what China considered its territory and occupy Chinese claimed land that was rpeviously a buffer zone. That is why up until February, Global Times was complaining about India occupying Chinese land in South Pangong. India had made it clear all its actions were on its side

Anyway all that about India intruding into China's side is separate from the other discussion on occupying Indian side peaks. It is my personal belief that China had and likely still has no intention to exacerbate the confrontation. It gains little to nothing from stoking flames with India on Ladakh. This crisis came out of what China accurately considers Indian moves that threaten its control on Aksai Chin and the rest of India's legacy claims, stemming from actions in Jan 2020 and underpinned by increased hostility between the two since 2013.

India understandably wants the 20% and is justified in feeling insecure with its capital city within just rocket artillery range of this region. Personally I consider Indian moves to salami slice to be no more unreasonable than China's in the past. However, it none of this situation and every detail that happened during it should be so misrepresented as it has been in Indian media and social media (varying from incredibly favourable to unfavourable) and all the noise making (even if Indian actions are understandable and to some degree, justified) to have further eroded the relation - negative consequences for both no matter how it is viewed. Not to mention the other stuff that just brings everyone down a level.

Having said that, Chinese leaders of the past had their reasons to keep this issue unresolved. They didn't want to give the thing to India and India won't demarcate and settle on a border. After the war, it was considered the wisest move to leave it for the future. Well at least for now, it seems to be that the way to deal with it has been far more peaceful than during the previous eras. Part of this is because there is a far greater capability gap now than in the past. China has no desire to invade into India. It gains nothing and if Indian refuses to relinquish, it get bogged down in a meaningless and expensive war. It will not invade India but will also concede the rest of the disputed territory unless the act creates a certain level of security promise and good will. China has ceded disputed parts to other nations while India has annexed disputed parts with some of those same nations (and past nations). The present situation seems to be a workable stalemate which is almost a de facto buffer but with both within the 20%. This isn't a solution but it is better than many alternatives.