Ladakh Flash Point

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twineedle

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Lol even Global Times went in to say (hint hint) this map isn't correct. For starters India wasn't on F4. And for the rest that are south of the lake, exactly like I said, all on India's side. The blue line (of Chinese control) runs through black top and helmet top etc. Not the red line shown in this map. Red line showing Chinese official claims BUT not up to where China controls. Again this is important. That's like saying PLA and China won everything because India does not control up to the most eastern line of Aksai Chin and the rest of Indian claims. Like saying PLA won and beat IA in capturing up to the EASTERN most points of India's claims.

Do you not see how ridiculous this is as a thing to brag about beating PLA to? When PLA in the south never stepped foot beyond blue line which would be 5km EAST of the red line in this map. So what did India capture? Stuff that was always on their side of control and land that PLA hasn't stepped on since 1962.
India was at Finger 4. PLA was occupying the Green Top ridge. You probably don't know the geography that well since this is probably your first time learning these names, but there are multiple heights along the f4 ridge.
 

ougoah

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India was at Finger 4. PLA was occupying the Green Top ridge. You probably don't know the geography that well since this is probably your first time learning these names, but there are multiple heights along the f4 ridge.

I'm talking about just the one dimensional points on fingers. PLA occupied to the eastern half of the 1D point on F4. Of course ridges vary. I'm pointing out it's not accurate for the map to have indicated that India held F4. The ridges don't make up what we are referring to when talking about the fingers. India's issue with PLA on Pangong lake was the fingers. While not of strategic value, they were representative of the situation. North of Pangong lake was and still is mostly held by Indians - hence the standoff not being resolved despite Pangong agreements offered and accepted.

As for the point of your post and that article, I was right about these being on India's side. PLA wasn't even on Black and Helmet Tops before Indian intrusion into east Reqin. PLA had not made a move on occupying south of lake points and India self declared victory on "reaching" peaks on its own side that would have been 10s of km from the nearest PLA.
 

twineedle

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I'm talking about just the one dimensional points on fingers. PLA occupied to the eastern half of the 1D point on F4. Of course ridges vary. I'm pointing out it's not accurate for the map to have indicated that India held F4. The ridges don't make up what we are referring to when talking about the fingers. India's issue with PLA on Pangong lake was the fingers. While not of strategic value, they were representative of the situation. North of Pangong lake was and still is mostly held by Indians - hence the standoff not being resolved despite Pangong agreements offered and accepted.

As for the point of your post and that article, I was right about these being on India's side. PLA wasn't even on Black and Helmet Tops before Indian intrusion into east Reqin. PLA had not made a move on occupying south of lake points and India self declared victory on "reaching" peaks on its own side that would have been 10s of km from the nearest PLA.
The reason why India was concerned about PLA presence on the fingers was because Green Top directly overlooks Dhan Singh Thapa, and by extension threatens the road to hot springs.

And PLA had occupied Black Top and Helmet top in August, which is why Indian Army occupied the lower heights surrounding it, to prevent PLA from crossing the Indian perception of the LAC. Rechin La and Rezang La were occupied as bargaining chips becasue they overlook the Spangur gap. This is why PLA dropped its demand for "equidistant disengagement" and agreed to Indian terms for Pangong disengagement. I have said countless times the official Indian statement was preempting China.
 
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ougoah

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The reason why India was concerned about PLA presence on the fingers was because Green Top directly overlooks Dhan Singh Thapa, and by extension threatens the road to hot springs.

I honestly don't quite understand this thinking of peaks overlooking etc. Maybe advantageous when fighting with swords and arrows on horseback but I personally doubt any of this was for consideration of threatening roads and camps. Those roads and camps are threatened by the combined effort of warfare and in a tactical sense, by the hardware that would be used in those situations. I don't think India at any stage is genuinely concerned about PLA presence in xyz or PLA concerned about Indian presence for the purposes of threatening an attack and using those points as some springboard. Maybe in the last century, this would still be relatively important with machine gun nests and artillery positions, cover etc. Now, it is used as an excuse but the actual desire for the other to not be on xyz would simply be because it is land occupied by the other and would require targeting if it came to a shooting war. In any case, frontlines would be wiped out immediately including regional camps.

Both build up camps in an effort to show that it is willing and able to supply troops for a non-violent standoff and to stay in position.

And PLA had occupied Black Top and Helmet top in August, which is why Indian Army occupied the lower heights surrounding it, to prevent PLA from crossing the Indian perception of the LAC. I have said countless times the official Indian statement was preempting China.

Yes this is the only true reason India went to position troops around the edge. In case PLA moves in. Just like China is placing troops and equipment on the edge in case India moves in. It wasn't to capture anything from China. China wasn't there occupying those heights on the map was it? those peaks to the west of Black Top and Helmet Top. So why is it presented as if it was taken from the Chinese? It wasn't captured from anyone. Those peaks of Magar Hill, Gurung Hill, Rezang La, Rachana La, Mokhpari were empty. India assumed and prepared for Chinese intrusion which never came. Of course it can imagine the situation as it wants but it certainly wasn't a "victory".
 

twineedle

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I honestly don't quite understand this thinking of peaks overlooking etc. Maybe advantageous when fighting with swords and arrows on horseback but I personally doubt any of this was for consideration of threatening roads and camps. Those roads and camps are threatened by the combined effort of warfare and in a tactical sense, by the hardware that would be used in those situations. I don't think India at any stage is genuinely concerned about PLA presence in xyz or PLA concerned about Indian presence for the purposes of threatening an attack and using those points as some springboard. Maybe in the last century, this would still be relatively important with machine gun nests and artillery positions, cover etc. Now, it is used as an excuse but the actual desire for the other to not be on xyz would simply be because it is land occupied by the other and would require targeting if it came to a shooting war. In any case, frontlines would be wiped out immediately including regional camps.

Both build up camps in an effort to show that it is willing and able to supply troops for a non-violent standoff and to stay in position.



Yes this is the only true reason India went to position troops around the edge. In case PLA moves in. Just like China is placing troops and equipment on the edge in case India moves in. It wasn't to capture anything from China. China wasn't there occupying those heights on the map was it? those peaks to the west of Black Top and Helmet Top. So why is it presented as if it was taken from the Chinese? It wasn't captured from anyone. Those peaks of Magar Hill, Gurung Hill, Rezang La, Rachana La, Mokhpari were empty. India assumed and prepared for Chinese intrusion which never came. Of course it can imagine the situation as it wants but it certainly wasn't a "victory".
Who's saying they were captured from China? Those peaks were previously a buffer zone.
 

ougoah

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Who's saying they were captured from China? Those peaks were previously a buffer zone.

1624688149393.png

India speaking for China here.

And here below we have the use of the word captured. Capture from China is the implication of the language (for those who aren't aware that China was never even close to these places i.e. almost all Indians and definitely all Jai Hinds) with the intention to suggest that IA is prepared and strong and "beat" China to something China had no desire to make moves on. If it was, why would it have taken PLA months of occupying F8 to F4 and make no attempt at even moving to Black Top and Helmet Top (which is end of Chinese control line) until August?? This article is suggesting PLA wanted those Magar Gurung etc hills this whole time but while it successfully occupied F8 to F4 for nearly half a year, it only went up to Black Top and Helmet Top which are EAST of these hills a full 5 months after? And only when India started making moves in the south? Seems like China is reacting to Indian moves. Something India failed to convert into anything in terms of bargaining power or military advantage. Again these hills are on India's side which we all agree with and AGAIN China and PLA did not make moves past Black Top and Helmet Top before and after Indian troops "captured" those peaks.

1624688511684.png
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
View attachment 73889

India speaking for China here.

And here below we have the use of the word captured. Capture from China is the implication of the language (for those who aren't aware that China was never even close to these places i.e. almost all Indians and definitely all Jai Hinds) with the intention to suggest that IA is prepared and strong and "beat" China to something China had no desire to make moves on. If it was, why would it have taken PLA months of occupying F8 to F4 and make no attempt at even moving to Black Top and Helmet Top (which is end of Chinese control line) until August?? This article is suggesting PLA wanted those Magar Gurung etc hills this whole time but while it successfully occupied F8 to F4 for nearly half a year, it only went up to Black Top and Helmet Top which are EAST of these hills a full 5 months after? And only when India started making moves in the south? Seems like China is reacting to Indian moves. Something India failed to convert into anything in terms of bargaining power or military advantage. Again these hills are on India's side which we all agree with and AGAIN China and PLA did not make moves past Black Top and Helmet Top before and after Indian troops "captured" those peaks.

View attachment 73891
Like I said, the official statement of India is that India preempted China.

This is another good article by a reputable journalist.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

ougoah

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Like I said in the past, India instigated a tactical plan to make moves in the south. It did intrude into China (east Reqin) details of that are relatively sketchy but we know Chinese government officially declared this and even if Indian gov didn't (why would they) Indian military leaked videos showing something that confirms what CCP said and India media ran marathons with the story, probably with the support of the indian gov. It keeps its distance and doesnt need to admit it and it benefits from propaganda points. It just failed to convert that into anything worthwhile since China quickly expelled those Indians in east Reqin.

Then PLA held Black Top and Helmet Top (confirmation of this only happened in Sep and after iirc NOT actually August so even more for the point) and Chinese sources leaked that non-lethal DEW was used to quickly expel Indians. Chinese mouthpieces then said that Indian troops have vacated east reqin and the intrusion into China is resolved... CCP stopped complaining about it at this time. If CCP's intention was to "hide" this, it wouldn't have reported about it for two weeks.

India "captures" ( :rolleyes: ) its own peaks which PLA was not even remotely close to the entire time and makes it seem like they are preventing PLA invasion. Okay whatever it can indeed claim and say that since we can never know if that would have been a PLA intention but it remains doubtful since PLA wasn't even at Black and Helmet Tops until after August. If they wanted to invade into India, they would have done it.
 

twineedle

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Like I said in the past, India instigated a tactical plan to make moves in the south. It did intrude into China (east Reqin) details of that are relatively sketchy but we know Chinese government officially declared this and even if Indian gov didn't (why would they) Indian military leaked videos showing something that confirms what CCP said and India media ran marathons with the story, probably with the support of the indian gov. It keeps its distance and doesnt need to admit it and it benefits from propaganda points. It just failed to convert that into anything worthwhile since China quickly expelled those Indians in east Reqin.

Then PLA held Black Top and Helmet Top (confirmation of this only happened in Sep and after iirc NOT actually August so even more for the point) and Chinese sources leaked that non-lethal DEW was used to quickly expel Indians. Chinese mouthpieces then said that Indian troops have vacated east reqin and the intrusion into China is resolved... CCP stopped complaining about it at this time. If CCP's intention was to "hide" this, it wouldn't have reported about it for two weeks.

India "captures" ( :rolleyes: ) its own peaks which PLA was not even remotely close to the entire time and makes it seem like they are preventing PLA invasion. Okay whatever it can indeed claim and say that since we can never know if that would have been a PLA intention but it remains doubtful since PLA wasn't even at Black and Helmet Tops until after August. If they wanted to invade into India, they would have done it.
You still haven't provided evidence for any of those claims. I have provided multiple reputable Indian sources which contradict what you are saying.

And if India didn't acheive any advantage through its South Pangong ops, why did PLA drop its demand for equidistant disengagement and restore status quo ante? China literally accepted India's initial terms and retreated.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
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Like I said, the official statement of India is that India preempted China.

This is another good article by a reputable journalist.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

That is indeed the actual official position but it was reported as if it is captured from China. It does use the word captured after all. That's like PLA saying it "captured" Beijing. Well done boys lol.

And while it is the actual official position and intention, it should be noted that China arrived to the south AFTER the Indians and REACTED to Indians intruding into China's side. So any claim of China wanting to invade the south is so dishonest. What more do I expect though.

How could China have wanted to invade into India in the south of lake if it arrived 6 months after occupying forward positions on Pangong (for the original matter) and only positioned PLA on China's side AFTER india intrudes into china.
 
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