Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle said:

When did the indian army or government say it had crossed its perception of the LAC? I have shown you several official Indian statements. You are going by what anonymous twitter sources say.

And the reason why the Kailash range op. was so significant was because that was the first time the Indian side was occupied since 1962, previously it was a buffer zone.

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So if it doesn't say it, it wasn't true? Then why did the Chinese government say India crossed LAC in the south (which is pretty much bilateral) and why did the Indian gov not immediately deny this? In fact Indian gov never said anything but allowed the propaganda to perpetuate because it benefit from the propaganda of India "winning".

I've already explained why this is almost certainly something that happened. One can make up their own mind with the general facts.

PLA never occupied anything except the initial move on Pangong Finger 4 (from behind F8) and other parts of the northern side. China's perspective here claims that it is in response to Indian build up and increased patrolling of the 20%. India was silent early on and then claimed the perspective that the whole thing is a Chinese aggressive move to shift LAC west.

Well on this, it's a he said she said but think about a few things. China won 80% of the legacy dispute and is wary of India claiming the whole thing. China offered back in 1959 and countless times after to settle and demarcate the border properly with India with offers that set the border EAST of China's claims. After the war, China took all of its claims and MUCH MUCH more but gave back to India everything that was a part of India (no western power would have done this) and both salami sliced in various way after the war which China offering a return to pre war positions for total ceasefire (showing it has no desire for strategic land win at cost of continued warfare). With China gaining far more ground during the decades of post war salami slicing FROM pre war positions which was a condition offered and accepted for no more warfare. Both performed increased build ups until the remaining 20%. If this latest confrontation was a Chinese aggression move to shift LAC, why would they give back captured land (F4 to F8)? when they held it for nearly a year. If the intention was to move LAC forward, the Chinese did that and achieved the objective. To only disengage? Notice now that disengagement was at the condition of India not stepping east of F3. All of this supports China's perspective in its entirety and if anything disproves India's perspective.

Then think about what China has to gain by stoking flames with India. Look at the progress of each nation. One is clearly working and the other isn't. Who has more to lose to de-stabilising things that are working well? What core interest has China got for picking a war with India, getting all the unwanted attention and propaganda targeting only to win the land and then disengage? Doesn't make any sense.

Methinks India did actually think China was going to be bogged down by Covid back in Jan and Feb and decided to move on the 20%. Hoping for a minimum de facto control. They definitely did not expect Chinese response to be with resolve and so intense (instantly occupying F8 to F4). You can see the Indians were in fact armed and numbered for brawls the entire time. Just the number of captured Indians from March to June shows how many Indians were involved.

ougoah said:

So if it doesn't say it, it wasn't true? Then why did the Chinese government say India crossed LAC in the south (which is pretty much bilateral) and why did the Indian gov not immediately deny this? In fact Indian gov never said anything but allowed the propaganda to perpetuate because it benefit from the propaganda of India "winning".

I've already explained why this is almost certainly something that happened. One can make up their own mind with the general facts.

PLA never occupied anything except the initial move on Pangong Finger 4 (from behind F8) and other parts of the northern side. China's perspective here claims that it is in response to Indian build up and increased patrolling of the 20%. India was silent early on and then claimed the perspective that the whole thing is a Chinese aggressive move to shift LAC west.

Well on this, it's a he said she said but think about a few things. China won 80% of the legacy dispute and is wary of India claiming the whole thing. China offered back in 1959 and countless times after to settle and demarcate the border properly with India with offers that set the border EAST of China's claims. After the war, China took all of its claims and MUCH MUCH more but gave back to India everything that was a part of India (no western power would have done this) and both salami sliced in various way after the war. With China gaining far more ground. Both performed increased build ups until the remaining 20%. If this latest confrontation was a Chinese aggression move to shift LAC, why would they give back captured land (F4 to F8)? when they held it for nearly a year. If the intention was to move LAC forward, the Chinese did that and achieved the objective. To only disengage? Notice now that disengagement was at the condition of India not stepping east of F3. All of this supports China's perspective in its entirety and if anything disproves India's perspective.

Then think about what China has to gain by stoking flames with India. Look at the progress of each nation. One is clearly working and the other isn't. Who has more to lose to de-stabilising things that are working well? What core interest has China got for picking a war with India, getting all the unwanted attention and propaganda targeting only to win the land and then disengage? Doesn't make any sense.

Methinks India did actually think China was going to be bogged down by Covid back in Jan and Feb and decided to move on the 20%. Hoping for a minimum de facto control. They definitely did not expect Chinese response to be with resolve and so intense (instantly occupying F8 to F4). You can see the Indians were in fact armed and numbered for brawls the entire time. Just the number of captured Indians from March to June shows how many Indians were involved.

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As I have shown, the Indian Army quite clearly said it hadn't crossed India's perception of the LAC. And there is a difference in perception in South Pangong. Look at the Map Nitin gokhale provided. Of course, if you don't think Indian Army's own statements are reputable, than that's another story.
And you are conveniently forgetting that India actually cancelled its annual exercise in Ladakh because of Covid. It was China that moved its forces from traditional exercise areas towards the LAC in violation of the 1993 agreement. Literally every Indian and non-Indian source reported that India was initially surprised. Satellite imagery also confirms China's movements in May, with India responding.

twineedle said:

As I have shown, the Indian Army quite clearly said it hadn't crossed India's perception of the LAC. And there is a difference in perception in South Pangong. Look at the Map Nitin gokhale provided.

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I don't think the Indian army officially said that Mercury is the first planet from the sun either. Doesn't make that untrue.

China said Indian army crossed LAC in the south of lake region. Indian videos during this time (exact same days btw) showed Indian soldiers dancing and celebrating a "capture". Indian media took it and ran a few marathons. Indian gov and army never once denied this or challenged China's claim that India crossed LAC? Wouldn't that be something India would do when accused of crossing border which in the south is basically as close to demarcated as possible (with both sides claiming more beyond it).

This was also a tactic some Indian military men and observers mentioned before it happened... as a viable tactic to capture Chinese land to improve India's bargaining position for norther disputes. Anyway I think at this point I've said enough about this and it's abundantly clear what's true.

"
"Six new major hill features have been captured by our troops, including the Magar Hill, Gurung Hill, Rezang La, Rachana La, Mokhpari and the biggest peak on the Finger 4 ridgeline," top government sources told India Today TV.

The heights, that are spread from the southern to the northern bank of Pangong Tso lake, have given India an edge over the Chinese in the ongoing conflict in specific areas, sources said.

They also said that the tussle between the two armies to occupy the dormant heights along the LAC began after August 29 when the Chinese tried to sit on heights south of Thakung area near the southern bank of Pangong Tso.

The foiling of the Chinese Army's attempts to occupy the heights led to firing in air from the northern bank of Pangong Tso to the southern bank of the lake, at least on three occasions.


The sources clarified that the Black Top and the Helmet Top hill features are on the Chinese side of the LAC, while the heights occupied
by the Indian side are in Indian territory. Now, the Chinese Army has deployed around 3,000 additional troops of its combined arms brigade, including its infantry and armoured troops, near the Rezang La and Rechen La heights."

There is a pretty big difference in perception of the LAC in South Pangong just like in the North, as shown by Dr. Fravel.


Another good article describing the advantage India gained over China as a result of the South Pangong ops:

Can you point on a map where "Six new major hill features have been captured by our troops, including the Magar Hill, Gurung Hill, Rezang La, Rachana La, Mokhpari and the biggest peak on the Finger 4 ridgeline," these points are?

You will see how stupid this article is after doing this.

Hint, the article says "beat PLA to capturing these heights"... umm I wasn't aware India had a crystal ball All of these points are either on India proper's side OR part of the south of lake intrusion into China. The event/s I was talking about for the last few pages... which resulted in?? Indians leaving pretty damn quickly.

So basically you see one Indian media article that is showing what I've been saying. Except it bends the truth in saying PLA had an interest in capturing India proper. This is like Chinese media stating that PLA managed to beat India in capturing strategic points in Aksai Chin. Do you not see how humiliating and stupid this is?

In summary, this article is boasting that India managed to capture its own land and that there was an IA intrusion into China, promoting that act as victory and prove of xyz but later of course those indians were either expelled or left on their own. So in conclusion the net result was India celebrating its ability to capture peaks on its own side of the border. Well done I guess. This is one example of what I said earlier about Indian media running marathons with the "capture" story and Indian gov and army allowing it all to propagate BECAUSE it actually happened. So you're swinging from denying it happened because ind army didn't say it and showing articles that gloat about something that eventually ended in Indian humiliation.

ougoah said:

Can you point on a map where "Six new major hill features have been captured by our troops, including the Magar Hill, Gurung Hill, Rezang La, Rachana La, Mokhpari and the biggest peak on the Finger 4 ridgeline," these points are?

You will see how stupid this article is after doing this.

Hint, the article says "beat PLA to capturing these heights"... umm I wasn't aware India had a crystal ball All of these points are either on India proper's side OR part of the south of lake intrusion into China. The event/s I was talking about for the last few pages... which resulted in?? Indians leaving pretty damn quickly.

So basically you see one Indian media article that is showing what I've been saying. Except it bends the truth in saying PLA had an interest in capturing India proper. This is like Chinese media stating that PLA managed to beat India in capturing strategic points in Aksai Chin. Do you not see how humiliating and stupid this is?

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Nitin Gokhale shows all those points on his map. Those were all the major features occupied on the south, as confirmed by the Army. and remained occupied until Febraury. As I said before, the Indian army said it preempted the PLA by occupying heights south of Black Top and Helmet Top, which were already long occupied by PLA, because India had intel PLA might try and move near the Chushul gap. As I said, there is also a big difference in perception of the LAC between India and China on the South just like in the North.

twineedle said:

Nitin Gokhale shows all those points on his map. Those were all the major features occupied on the south, as confirmed by the Army. As I said before, the Indian army said it preempted the PLA by occupying heights south of Black Top and Helmet Top, which were already long occupied by PLA, because India had intel PLA might try and move near the Chushul gap. As I said, there is also a big difference in perception of the LAC between India and China on the South just like in the North.

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Can you show that map. These terms I suspect are quite Indian exclusive and not doing well in google searches. Let's build a better resolution of what these are. You will see that they are all on India's side of LAC (like PLA gloating it beat India in capturing Aksai Chin peaks which it's never done because that's a stupid funny thing to do) and probably part/s of the indian intrusion in to China which you expressed denial and doubt over.

These were the positions in early September.
Red line is Indian perception of LAC.

For comparison, this is the Chinese perception

twineedle said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1304730516017487872

These were the positions in early September.
Red line is Indian perception of LAC.

Click to expand...

Lol even Global Times went in to say (hint hint) this map isn't correct. For starters India wasn't on F4. And for the rest that are south of the lake, exactly like I said, all on India's side. The blue line (of Chinese control) runs through black top and helmet top etc. Not the red line shown in this map. Red line showing Chinese official claims BUT not up to where China controls. Again this is important. That's like saying PLA and China won everything because India does not control up to the most eastern line of Aksai Chin and the rest of Indian claims. Like saying PLA won and beat IA in capturing up to the EASTERN most points of India's claims.

Do you not see how ridiculous this is as a thing to brag about beating PLA to? When PLA in the south never stepped foot beyond blue line which would be 5km EAST of the red line in this map. So what did India capture? Stuff that was always on their side of control and land that PLA hasn't stepped on since 1962.

ougoah said:

Can you show that map. These terms I suspect are quite Indian exclusive and not doing well in google searches. Let's build a better resolution of what these are. You will see that they are all on India's side of LAC (like PLA gloating it beat India in capturing Aksai Chin peaks which it's never done because that's a stupid funny thing to do) and probably part/s of the indian intrusion in to China which you expressed denial and doubt over.

Click to expand...

The reason I am doubtful is because multiple reputable Indian sources contradicted those claims.