Hong-Kong Protests

Mr T

Senior Member
BoJo and his goons have not only killed off the recovery of my industry, they've done bugger all to help its very own national flag carrier.

Why should the airline industry have been given special treatment? Its employees were given the same access to Covid-19 support that other industries were. British Airways weren't the only company that lost money.

Might've been something to do with the fact the airline is run by a holding company based in Spain I suppose, but I digress.

Virgin didn't get a government bailout either.

Yay democracy.

So here's the key point, how would things have been better if the Conservatives passed a law making them the only legal party in the UK, with a few "loyal" other parties being allowed to participate in elections in a token fashion? Presumably having Boris Johnson as Prime Minister For Life wouldn't have made you any happier with your lot, would it? Democracy isn't the path to a great government, it's a method of holding it accountable.

I'm sick and tired of the west downplaying accomplishments by the Chinese nation state...because our government wasn't democratically elected

I'm sorry to break it to you, but the media in democratic countries frequently focuses on the negative rather than the positive. That's often the same for their home government. Even the Chinese media tends to only report positive stuff about other countries if they're a close ally of China or it's related to them doing something involving a deal with China. Otherwise it's pretty negative or filler.

Until recently when I asked people very conerned with human rights why they tended to focus on the US and had no problems buying Chinese-made items, the most common comment I heard was that China shouldn't be held to the same high standard as countries like the US.

Also, there certainly used to be a lot of praise for China's accomplishments under Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao. If there has been a rise of criticism since then it's because of Xi's ham-fisted approach to diplomatic relations and domestic crackdown (Hong Kong especially).

I'd argue the guy behind the PRC wheel seems legitimate based on his competence as a statesman, and more importantly what he's managed to accomplish.

I'm not sure that Xi has accomplished anything other than using his power to suppress his opponents, use resources that were generated under previous governments and tell diplomats to start getting angry. That's more akin to what Donald Trump did after inheriting his father's money.

His engagement policy with Taiwan has been a failure - he's overseen Taiwan electing a DPP President twice and with a legislative majority (something they never had).

He's also managed to annoy countries that were previously fairly well disposed towards him thanks to trying to cover up the Covid-19 situation until it had spread internationally.

Xi isn't the emodiment of every CCP politician that has gone before him. He shouldn't be given any praise for the leadership of his predecessors.

We have a saying in Hong Kong 身有屎, which basically you've got something to hide, or you're full of crap. All I have to say that most of the "highly-skilled and wealthy Chinese" you described pretty much fall under this category.

IT professionals, medical staff, vetenarians - they were pretty ordinary and didn't have anything to hide (I saw how they lived).

they're all now lawyers, doctors, investment bankers... well we're looking to come back to the Motherland.

Your doctor friends want to work in a state-run hospital in mainland China where doctors get paid peanuts? Your lawyer friends want to work in a country where cases can be decided on the basis of which plaintiff is most connected to local/central government? No idea about the investment bankers, but they'll be making money wherever their companies have offices, so I can see if they wanted to move back home.

Voting is less meaningful than being rich.

Unless you live a country like China or Russia where the state can take your money away and throw you in jail, because you said something bad about its leader.

One example I always like to point out is the healthcare system in the US. Rich companies and shareholders don’t want to see their profits diverted away, so somehow the media and politicians have convinced most of the poor people who could benefit the most from reform into voting against their own best interests.

The Affordable Care Act remains generally popular in the US, and the largest majority is for the poorest Americans (select income under $40,000).

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Another example is the idea of rule of law. In theory, it means you can go to court to fight the law or other parties that you have grievances with. In practice/reality, it just means rule of money.

That's drivel. Trump has lost cases just recently when ordinary citizens got injunctions against his bans against Wechat and Tiktok. They might not win their cases eventually, but it goes to show that the US state doesn't always win. If it was just about money then the US government would have pre-booked "the best" lawyers and then automatically won.
 
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Mr T

Senior Member
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Hongkongers renewed their British National (Overseas) passports or applied for the travel document in record numbers in 2019 when the city was rocked by months of
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, marking an eightfold increase over all applications in 2018.

The unprecedented surge was not triggered by the
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imposed by Beijing on June 30 but it continued unabated in the first half of 2020 and anecdotal evidence suggests it was further fuelled by fears sparked by the draconian legislation.

By July this year, those who succeeded with their renewals and applications found themselves in possession of a more valuable document when Britain undertook a major policy shift to allow Hongkongers a clear
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.

Data obtained by the Post through a British government Freedom of Information Request showed the total number of identity documents issued in 2019 soared to 154,218, nearly an eightfold increase from the previous year.

...

I'm sure they're all corrupt people deciding they need to hide their money in the UK. :D
 

ericlfh

New Member
Registered Member
The so called freedom of expression in USA is that they are trully free to spread fake news, slander, hatred etc, if used the wrong way. Freedom of expression is useful if 80 percent of your of population is responsible adults giving constructive criticism, not man-child shouting meaningless slogan on the street or face book. However a authoritian government that becomes corrupted is worse, because it has no way to replace itself other than violent uprising. So I would like to be a Chinese China, a redneck, and a North Korean, in that order.
 

crash8pilot

Junior Member
Registered Member
The so called freedom of expression in USA is that they are trully free to spread fake news, slander, hatred etc, if used the wrong way. Freedom of expression is useful if 80 percent of your of population is responsible adults giving constructive criticism, not man-child shouting meaningless slogan on the street or face book.
Well according to a certain someone on the forum, that's what holding the government accountable means lolz
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Freedom of expression is useful if 80 percent of your of population is responsible adults giving constructive criticism, not man-child shouting meaningless slogan on the street or face book.

Given I keep being told on this forum that free speech wouldn't work in China, do you think that 80% of Chinese people are irresponsible and incapable of giving constructive criticism?

I would like to be a Chinese China, a redneck, and a North Korean, in that order

Have you considered being a Chinese person living in another country, like Singapore or New Zealand?
 

ericlfh

New Member
Registered Member
We have freedom of expression here, so do people in China. Maybe you can get 'dissapeared' in China if you criticized certain things, but most of them are happy with their government, so who are we to say they are oppressed? China have this five year policy to review the country's development and direction, citizens get a say on this thing. Maybe you can say it is pointless, but so is most elections, which is just a seasonal political bickering, and finally choose who you hate or like less. If a government is on the right track, just keep it rolling, not stalling. This I can see happening in China. If your enemy keeps picking on you, that shows you are doing right. Maybe their wheel we come off one day, and you have your laugh, but there are not right or wrong government system, only a suitable one. Black cat or white cat, which can catch the mice is a good cat, remember that?
 

Mr T

Senior Member
We have freedom of expression here, so do people in China. Maybe you can get 'dissapeared' in China if you criticized certain things, but most of them are happy with their government

If you can be disappeared in China for criticising "certain things" that would suggest there is no freedom of speech (or expression). Being free to complain to your waiter about the quality of the meal served isn't really noteworthy.

Also given that the media and internet is so closely controlled in China, people have social credit scores that can stop them getting access to certain services if they say "bad things" and children are taught from a young age to love the Party, it's hardly surprising that in public the CCP is popular. Much like how North Koreans "love" their leader.

China have this five year policy to review the country's development and direction, citizens get a say on this thing.

You mean like this?

Box A: I love the 5 year development plan
Box B: I think the 5 year development plan is adequate
Box C: I want to go to jail and have my family harassed by the police


If a government is on the right track, just keep it rolling

What do you do in a one-party state like China where even suggesting a change of goverment in public is an automatic jail sentence (if you're not disappeared)?

Unless you can accurately foresee the future, you can't know that the CCP might lead China into trouble in the future.

On the other hand if you're sure China will always be great, can you please tell me this weekend's lottery numbers?

Maybe their wheel we come off one day, and you have your laugh

I won't be laughing if ordinary Chinese people suffer. Just as I hope you wouldn't laugh at another country suffering, even if you didn't like its government.

Black cat or white cat, which can catch the mice is a good cat, remember that?

Ironically what Deng was talking about was not persecuting people just because they had "non-Communist" ideas. That's something that Xi in particular has been reversing. In his eyes you're with the Party or you're against it.

Anyway, I think you're somewhat missing the point. The issue isn't whether China needs democracy or free speech. The question, as posed by others here, is whether China is "freer" than the developed world or whether the developed world's freedoms aren't worth having generally. Generally speaking, when countries have democracy they normally don't like giving it up. Sure, sometimes authoritarianism and dictators are embraced out of "necessity". But usually when things start to go wrong people want to revert to democracy, because it gives them a way to eject corrupt or inept governments.

I can respect someone who says that China has less freedoms than the developed world but that they're not needed right now or that they could be counter-productive. I wouldn't agree fully, but I would respect it. But the idea that China is "freer" is a joke.
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I can respect someone who says that China has less freedoms than the developed world but that they're not needed right now or that they could be counter-productive. I wouldn't agree fully, but I would respect it. But the idea that China is "freer" is a joke.
Your persistent ignorance is the only joke here. You clearly know China only through a biased filtered lens and nobody respect that garbage or wants respect from it. The "developed world" is a vast expanse of vary localities and laws and I can't pretend to know all of them but China is freer than the US, the country that used to be the champion of the developed world. America's extreme brutality and racism is nearly unbelievable to Chinese people because they thought America was beautiful advanced place; little could they know that it had slipped into apocalypse while they never even had a chance to see it. It would be an insult to China to compared Chinese freedoms to the things perpetrated by the police in America and then defended by the government today; those actions are much more akin to what happens in war-torn African nations.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Guys. We all know his modus operandi. Accept statements that fit his views on the world. Dismiss anything else. So much so that he'll simply refuses to answer (because he's unable to).

I'm still waiting for critical thinking of the high school students that he proposed

So why feed his ego and his trolling? He refuses to engage when he's on a looser. But continues to harp on when he thinks he's on a winner.

Don't forget what started this rant was UK government education policy forcing teachers like me not to criticise the capitalist system. Notice he's not defending that. But attack a comment from a poster about freedom in China! Blah blah blah.
 
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