Hong-Kong Protests

[witty username] · Sep 27, 2020

Mr T said:
Vote in national elections and, depending on the country, vote directly for the head of state

Stand in elections against the ruling party, again as appropriate even as head of state

Form new political parties that conflict with the ruling party

Sue the government (with a chance of winning)

Protest government policy openly

Practice your personal beliefs as you see fit, not as the government wants

Set up a newspaper, TV station or web-based outlet even if you publish content the ruling party doesn't like

Criticise and/or satirise the government openly without being censored and then get a visit from the police

Actually own your own home, which isn't possible in China because all you get is a lease the government can revoke whenever it likes

No social credit score to control your behaviour

No need to slip an official some banknotes to get lawful business done

I don't have time to do an exhaustive list, but these are the first ones that came off the top of my head.

You're going to characterise the "right to be racist" as a part of free speech?

Weird that so many wealthy - or just successful middle class - Chinese want to move there. Even CCP officials frequently send their families overseas.

I do occasionally read young Chinese Americans make comments like "yeah, bru, can't wait until I can move to China - just need to get fluent", but that's not a trend, that's a (very weird) fad.

Sometimes freedom isn't that good, especially freedom to take actions that are not in the benefit of society. Look at the Chinese in Xinjiang, that takes decisive leadership and the programme is working well, meanwhile in the UK there are some 23,000 Islamists just walking around in the streets.

Both the West and China are basically oligarchies, Chinese oligarchy is just more in tune with the interests of their people.

Also, I think Chinese coming West nowadays are mostly corrupt CCP officials, which is why many come to America on an E-1B visa.

Chinese in the West are slowly becoming more and more nationalistic as they see who is rising and who is falling, this is true for all sorts of other nationalities as well - Indians, Pakistanis, Turks etc - and so there is a lot of espionage and spying going on.

China is far more free from a spiritual perspective, as there is an air of optimism while the West is losing its shine as it turns into a battleground for various ethnic lobbying groups of the world.

Gatekeeper · Sep 27, 2020

Guys this is the classic mis-direction from someone trained to mislead. My original post was about censorship and authitarian state wanting to control what can and what can't be taught at education establishment.

The member from the A-team, would be the first to cry foul if this action was the CCP education policy. But Alas, no. All of a sudden, our A-team member changed it to a mere inconvenient of temporary drinking beer.

Come on guys, and you are all fallen to his level.

crash8pilot · Sep 27, 2020

As an "upper to middleclassman from Hong Kong" that was educated in the US (at least that makes me a spy in Pompeo's books, so I got that going for me lolz) and came to the UK for occupational opportunities, I'm telling you from my own first hand experience that I'm mad as hell with the government, and I can't wait to move back east where my homeland is on the rise.

While I currently live in the UK (and yes I am a British Citizen, not a BNO holder), I only get to vote for my local MP. I can't vote for the twat of a Prime Minister that continues to run the country down the flipping drain "getting Brexit done", while his pathetic Cabinet have effectively legislated me out of a job. I mean for heavens sake rather than taking responsibility for his utter incompetence, Johnson would rather sack experienced civil servants that have been keeping his ship afloat behind the scenes. Meanwhile the idiot of a Foreign Minister Dominic Raab goes around Brussels hitting up news outlets criticising human rights and the National Security Law, speaking like Britain is still the big Empire she once was. I mean give me a flipping break and step off your moral high horse!

Anyways this is a thread about Hong Kong.... My ranting aside, what I'm trying to say is that the likes of BoJo and Trump are seen as legitimate leaders because of a democratic vote, and not because they actually posses competence, experience, or are capable of bold strokes of leadership. Just seeing what's unfolding in Britain and the EU while looking across the Atlantic to the mess unfolding in America, it makes me think democracy is completely overrated.The vote is is essentially a popularity contest rather than a stamp of approval based on the merits and track record of a politician.

[witty username] · Sep 27, 2020

crash8pilot said:
As an "upper to middleclassman from Hong Kong" that was educated in the US (at least that makes me a spy in Pompeo's books, so I got that going for me lolz) and came to the UK for occupational opportunities, I'm telling you from my own first hand experience that I'm mad as hell with the government, and I can't wait to move back east where my homeland is on the rise.

While I currently live in the UK (and yes I am a British Citizen, not a BNO holder), I only get to vote for my local MP. I can't vote for the twat of a Prime Minister that continues to run the country down the flipping drain "getting Brexit done", while his pathetic Cabinet have effectively legislated me out of a job. I mean for heavens sake rather than taking responsibility for his utter incompetence, Johnson would rather sack experienced civil servants that have been keeping his ship afloat behind the scenes. Meanwhile the idiot of a Foreign Minister Dominic Raab goes around Brussels hitting up news outlets criticising human rights and the National Security Law, speaking like Britain is still the big Empire she once was. I mean give me a flipping break and step off your moral high horse!

Anyways this is a thread about Hong Kong.... My ranting aside, what I'm trying to say is that the likes of BoJo and Trump are seen as legitimate leaders because of a democratic vote, and not because they actually posses competence, experience, or are capable of bold strokes of leadership. Just seeing what's unfolding in Britain and the EU while looking across the Atlantic to the mess unfolding in America, it makes me think democracy is completely overrated.The vote is is essentially a popularity contest rather than a stamp of approval based on the merits and track record of a politician.

Democracy is essentially media rule. Very few people really do deeper research on this or that policy. Brexit was actually a quasi-referendum on immigration but due to Farage's "Breaking Point" poster, many were fooled into thinking the EU is responsible for non-European immigration into the UK, when this is patently untrue. The irony is that now the proportion of non-EU immigrants will go up.

Democracy is a very fuel hungry machine, you need money for campaigning and so on, hence this system is susceptible to being infiltrated by private interests, interests whose desires are not always the same as the population at large.

Everything is backed up by hard power by the way, as China rises and America falls, I see a decline in the popularity of "liberal democracy"

daifo · Sep 27, 2020

crash8pilot said:
Anyways this is a thread about Hong Kong.... My ranting aside, what I'm trying to say is that the likes of BoJo and Trump are seen as legitimate leaders because of a democratic vote, and not because they actually posses competence, experience, or are capable of bold strokes of leadership. Just seeing what's unfolding in Britain and the EU while looking across the Atlantic to the mess unfolding in America, it makes me think democracy is completely overrated.The vote is is essentially a popularity contest rather than a stamp of approval based on the merits and track record of a politician.

Red blooded American patriots has taken the CIA disinformation playbook used worldwide and used it against their opposing political group. I guess its called blow-back

[witty username] · Sep 27, 2020

daifo said:
Red blooded American patriots has taken the CIA disinformation playbook used worldwide and used it against their opposing political group. I guess its called blow-back

The US intelligence community is more or less in lockstep with the Democratic Party and is in the process of orchestrating a "color revolution" in America.

Mr T · Sep 27, 2020

[witty username] said:
Sometimes freedom isn't that good

You literally just asked me to name things you can't do in China you can do in the first world, having before then claimed China was freer. I gave you some quick answers - don't move the goalposts.

I have no problem with someone arguing in an honest fashion that having less freedoms in China is a valid trade-off because it's best for China. I might not agree, but it's a position that makes some sense. But trying to argue China is both "freer" than the first world and simultaneously that the first world's freedoms are a bad thing is a joke.

China is far more free from a spiritual perspective

Despite the fact that the CCP is a virulently anti-religious organisation, regards any beliefs other than in itself as being dangerous and treats its citizens like children via censorship and the social credit system.

You're free to be optimistic in any country in the world. That Chinese people may be more nationalistic is not a freedom imparted by the CCP but a state of mind they alone control.

crash8pilot said:
As an "upper to middleclassman from Hong Kong" ... I can't wait to move back east where my homeland is on the rise.

while his pathetic Cabinet have effectively legislated me out of a job

So you losing your job has nothing to do with a desire to move (back) to China? Or are you maybe frustrated now that your career is shot and you're doing the only thing that probably makes financial sense? Either way, I'm sorry to hear times are tough for you, but it's got nothing to do with where many highly-skilled and wealthy Chinese are looking to base themselves (or make sure they have a bolt-hole to go to).

Gatekeeper · Sep 27, 2020

crash8pilot said:
As an "upper to middleclassman from Hong Kong" that was educated in the US (at least that makes me a spy in Pompeo's books, so I got that going for me lolz) and came to the UK for occupational opportunities, I'm telling you from my own first hand experience that I'm mad as hell with the government, and I can't wait to move back east where my homeland is on the rise.

While I currently live in the UK (and yes I am a British Citizen, not a BNO holder), I only get to vote for my local MP. I can't vote for the twat of a Prime Minister that continues to run the country down the flipping drain "getting Brexit done", while his pathetic Cabinet have effectively legislated me out of a job. I mean for heavens sake rather than taking responsibility for his utter incompetence, Johnson would rather sack experienced civil servants that have been keeping his ship afloat behind the scenes. Meanwhile the idiot of a Foreign Minister Dominic Raab goes around Brussels hitting up news outlets criticising human rights and the National Security Law, speaking like Britain is still the big Empire she once was. I mean give me a flipping break and step off your moral high horse!

Anyways this is a thread about Hong Kong.... My ranting aside, what I'm trying to say is that the likes of BoJo and Trump are seen as legitimate leaders because of a democratic vote, and not because they actually posses competence, experience, or are capable of bold strokes of leadership. Just seeing what's unfolding in Britain and the EU while looking across the Atlantic to the mess unfolding in America, it makes me think democracy is completely overrated.The vote is is essentially a popularity contest rather than a stamp of approval based on the merits and track record of a politician.

This voting thing that certain members here keep harping on about as some sort of holy grail. At every turn, china can't be as good as other nations because it hasn't got the vote.

Yes we got that. Give it a rest. As Trump said. It is what it is. Let's now get down to human rights when the US can kill suspect without recourse. But no. As far as this member is concern, they are fine doing all these bad things....... because they are a democracy!

So when we ask if democracy is so good, how come UK never give Hong Kong their democracy until it is time to leave. Also when Taiwan wasn't the beacon of democratic virtual. Yet the US and the West (both democratic) see no problem in supporting it. Likewise the Saudies know. Hypocrisy at it's ugly best.

crash8pilot · Sep 27, 2020

Mr T said:
So you losing your job has nothing to do with a desire to move (back) to China? Or are you maybe frustrated now that your career is shot and you're doing the only thing that probably makes financial sense? Either way, I'm sorry to hear times are tough for you, but it's got nothing to do with where many highly-skilled and wealthy Chinese are looking to base themselves (or make sure they have a bolt-hole to go to).

My career goal was to work my way back east, and as a commercial pilot there just weren't opportunities or openings in Hong Kong when I qualified with my wings, unless I was an experienced expat pilot. So yes me wanting to go back makes sense both financially and in terms of career progression, but more importantly what's been unfolding the past few years only makes my heart bleed China red. I remember the envy I once had for America and the west when I came to study abroad, but now that I'm on the ground I must say that the grass most certainly isn't greener over here.

I'm not gonna name names, but let's just say the airline I worked for flew the British Union Jack. BoJo and his goons have not only killed off the recovery of my industry, they've done bugger all to help its very own national flag carrier. Might've been something to do with the fact the airline is run by a holding company based in Spain I suppose, but I digress. Yay democracy.

We have a saying, 為中華民族發揚光大 (rough translation: to shine for our Chinese brothers and sisters), and I'm sick and tired of the west downplaying accomplishments by the Chinese nation state (and not just the PRC, I'd like to highlight the accomplishments of my fellow Chinese brethren that went abroad to broaden our skills and experience) because our government wasn't democratically elected, and therefore our accomplishments are illegitimate. Pardon my French, but that is complete utter horse shit. Newsflash: The PRC has managed to level the playing field (and in certain areas superceed) with the West in a mere seven decades of existence as a nation. Perhaps it might be time to take off the tinted glasses, shake our hand to say fair play, recognize how far we've come, and dare I even suggest reflect that perhaps the west may very well be on the decline? (Surely you can't tell me going from Trump to Biden is progress? Not like Biden has the election in the bag anyway.) I'm not saying democracy is useless and the Chinese brand of communism should be enforced worldwide, which is seemingly the narative the West is painting. I'm saying that the ability to vote doesn't provide legitimacy to a politician. I'd argue the guy behind the PRC wheel seems legitimate based on his competence as a statesman, and more importantly what he's managed to accomplish.

We have a saying in Hong Kong 身有屎, which basically you've got something to hide, or you're full of crap. All I have to say that most of the "highly-skilled and wealthy Chinese" you described pretty much fall under this category. Trust me I've got plenty of Facebook "friends" that whine about how they can't hack it in Hong Kong, the illegitimacy of One Country Two Systems, and how everything will be rainbows and unicorns when they immigrate. On the other hand there are many folks I went to school with in Hong Kong that ended up studying abroad. Some even stayed behind like myself - they're all now lawyers, doctors, investment bankers... essentially high skilled sought after talent, but more importantly share similar sentiments about how the west is brainwashing the masses, dragging the good name of Hong Kong and China down the gutter. Might I present you the other side to the coin and say that for those of us that "have went to the bolt hole", well we're looking to come back to the Motherland.

Gatekeeper · Sep 27, 2020

crash8pilot said:
My career goal was to work my way back east, and as a commercial pilot there just weren't opportunities or openings in Hong Kong when I qualified with my wings, unless I was an experienced expat pilot. So yes me wanting to go back makes sense both financially and in terms of career progression, but more importantly what's been unfolding the past few years only makes my heart bleed China red. I remember the envy I once had for America and the west when I came to study abroad, but now that I'm on the ground I must say that the grass most certainly isn't greener over here.

I'm not gonna name names, but let's just say the airline I worked for flew the British Union Jack. BoJo and his goons have not only killed off the recovery of my industry, they've done bugger all to help its very own national flag carrier. Might've been something to do with the fact the airline is run by a holding company based in Spain I suppose, but I digress. Yay democracy.

We have a saying, 為中華民族發揚光大 (rough translation: to shine for our Chinese brothers and sisters), and I'm sick and tired of the west downplaying accomplishments by the Chinese nation state (and not just the PRC, I'd like to highlight the accomplishments of my fellow Chinese brethren that went abroad to broaden our skills and experience) because our government wasn't democratically elected, and therefore our accomplishments are illegitimate. Pardon my French, but that is complete utter horse shit. Newsflash: The PRC has managed to level the playing field (and in certain areas superceed) with the West in a mere seven decades of existence as a nation. Perhaps it might be time to take off the tinted glasses, shake our hand to say fair play, recognize how far we've come, and dare I even suggest reflect that perhaps the west may very well be on the decline? (Surely you can't tell me going from Trump to Biden is progress? Not like Biden has the election in the bag anyway.) I'm not saying democracy is useless and the Chinese brand of communism should be enforced worldwide, which is seemingly the narative the West is painting. I'm saying that the ability to vote doesn't provide legitimacy to a politician. I'd argue the guy behind the PRC wheel seems legitimate based on his competence as a statesman, and more importantly what he's managed to accomplish.

We have a saying in Hong Kong 身有屎, which basically you've got something to hide, or you're full of crap. All I have to say that most of the "highly-skilled and wealthy Chinese" you described pretty much fall under this category. Trust me I've got plenty of Facebook "friends" that whine about how they can't hack it in Hong Kong, the illegitimacy of One Country Two Systems, and how everything will be rainbows and unicorns when they immigrate. On the other hand there are many folks I went to school with in Hong Kong that ended up studying abroad. Some even stayed behind like myself - they're all now lawyers, doctors, investment bankers... essentially high skilled sought after talent, but more importantly share similar sentiments about how the west is brainwashing the masses, dragging the good name of Hong Kong and China down the gutter. Might I present you the other side to the coin and say that for those of us that "have went to the bolt hole", well we're looking to come back to the Motherland.

Good write up. But I feel you're wasting your time. He's too set in his ways, and too blinkered to see the truth.

Hong-Kong Protests

[witty username]

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crash8pilot

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[witty username]

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daifo

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[witty username]

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Mr T

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