Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....
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airsuperiority
Captain
Re: Chinese General news resource thread
That's also how HK people feels towards mainland Chinese too. We are angry at mainland China and the police, but it's Beijing , HKSAR, and CY who we truly hate.
We don't want to antagonize our police brothers, so when they say something more comfortable, they win our applause. The whole night people are chanting for the police to go on strike. Of course while that sounds ridiculous, the mentality is that we see them as part of us and that this is their job, and we still believe in them deep inside, so we wish they prove us right and regain our faith.
That's also how HK people feels towards mainland Chinese too. We are angry at mainland China and the police, but it's Beijing , HKSAR, and CY who we truly hate.
We don't want to antagonize our police brothers, so when they say something more comfortable, they win our applause. The whole night people are chanting for the police to go on strike. Of course while that sounds ridiculous, the mentality is that we see them as part of us and that this is their job, and we still believe in them deep inside, so we wish they prove us right and regain our faith.
airsuperiority
Captain
Geographer
Junior Member
Re: Chinese General news resource thread
Thanks for your stories, comments, and activism, airsuperiority. I see a democratic awakening in Hong Kong. The controversy over Beijing's obligations in the Basic Law are just the symptom of this awakening. Appeals to the law, while effective in deterring many would-be protestors, are not a way to win the moral high ground. There's a general sentiment that ultimate authority for power rests in the hands of the governed, not the laws as they are at any one time. I think we would all agree that it was just and moral for an American police officer to refuse an order to let loose the fire hoses and attack dogs on unarmed, peaceful black protestors in 1950s Alabama, or for any soldier to refuse to participate in a massacre ordered by their commanding officers. Respect for the law increases in democratic societies because the governed have a legal way to change them. Respect for the law decreases in non-democratic societies because the people do not have a legal way to change them.
My question to true believers like plawold is in lieu of any legal way to effect change, what else can Hong Kong citizens do to control their own laws and government? plawolf, are you categorically opposed to public protests or just in this case?
Thanks for your stories, comments, and activism, airsuperiority. I see a democratic awakening in Hong Kong. The controversy over Beijing's obligations in the Basic Law are just the symptom of this awakening. Appeals to the law, while effective in deterring many would-be protestors, are not a way to win the moral high ground. There's a general sentiment that ultimate authority for power rests in the hands of the governed, not the laws as they are at any one time. I think we would all agree that it was just and moral for an American police officer to refuse an order to let loose the fire hoses and attack dogs on unarmed, peaceful black protestors in 1950s Alabama, or for any soldier to refuse to participate in a massacre ordered by their commanding officers. Respect for the law increases in democratic societies because the governed have a legal way to change them. Respect for the law decreases in non-democratic societies because the people do not have a legal way to change them.
My question to true believers like plawold is in lieu of any legal way to effect change, what else can Hong Kong citizens do to control their own laws and government? plawolf, are you categorically opposed to public protests or just in this case?
airsuperiority
Captain
Re: Chinese General news resource thread
It's been a very long night. It's been a very heavy emotional roller coaster, and I was very tired.
I want to first apologize to everyone who I might have said unkind words to from last night or even possibly lashed out, misunderstood, but also the same time thank all of you who voiced your support, concerns, questions, likes, and even engaging in the conversation.
I identified myself with this community greatly, and when my emotions get really fiery it's because also the affiliation I felt towards you guys and as a long time member here, and thus the frustrations if you guys don't understand or misunderstand my meaning. I am not saying my attitudes or correct, and thus I do want to apologize for any disrespect that I might have.
Despite my more critical views of China, it's because I had traversed beyond from a more pro-China perspective which I could understand the argument, to also wanting to see and examine my nation with more understanding and different lens. Regardless, I'm HK-Canadian-Chinese, and I'm always wanting the real good, for Chinese, and my closer hometown, Hong Kong.
Thanks for the concerns, blessings, and support once again.
It's been a very long night. It's been a very heavy emotional roller coaster, and I was very tired.
I want to first apologize to everyone who I might have said unkind words to from last night or even possibly lashed out, misunderstood, but also the same time thank all of you who voiced your support, concerns, questions, likes, and even engaging in the conversation.
I identified myself with this community greatly, and when my emotions get really fiery it's because also the affiliation I felt towards you guys and as a long time member here, and thus the frustrations if you guys don't understand or misunderstand my meaning. I am not saying my attitudes or correct, and thus I do want to apologize for any disrespect that I might have.
Despite my more critical views of China, it's because I had traversed beyond from a more pro-China perspective which I could understand the argument, to also wanting to see and examine my nation with more understanding and different lens. Regardless, I'm HK-Canadian-Chinese, and I'm always wanting the real good, for Chinese, and my closer hometown, Hong Kong.
Thanks for the concerns, blessings, and support once again.
airsuperiority
Captain
Re: Chinese General news resource thread
Thank you Geographer for your patience and to read what happened. I know some of my writings earlier were all over the place, so it's probably a bit of a struggle. The efforts and patience to read and listen is heart-felt by us.
I also appreciate your insight point. You are very correct, and for the same reasons, this is why, I can tell you, us Hong Kongers actually felt we had changed completely today, since the past few hours. Protestors didn't attack the police. We were orderly, and even when an ambulance was trying to enter a crowded street, everyone automatically made way for the vehicle. Strangers helped each other, bonded with each other. Truck drivers drove their trucks to block off the streets to protect the crowds. Some came with stocks full of water and supplies and said "it's for you guys". Everyone's supporting one another. Even the crowds are calling for the police to go on strike and join us, and not as much name-calling. Few days ago, professors would go to the assemblies of students sitting and offered free lectures. And tonight, a professor went in front of the police and gave free lectures on history and why we're doing this. I've always felt and thought HK isn't a city easy for people to be warm to each other anymore, but what I saw last night felt that despite all the energies, emotions, anger, people are disciplined, and bonded with one another. This is truly how a society should be.
Anyways I know what I said is getting too mushy, but you get the point. And I understand civil disobedience ain't exactly the lawful way, but the same time we can say we ran outta options.
One thing I find very intriguing was, as a psychology student, that the protests seemed to bring us to demonstrate our best behaviour, and I'm surprised.
Thank you Geographer for your patience and to read what happened. I know some of my writings earlier were all over the place, so it's probably a bit of a struggle. The efforts and patience to read and listen is heart-felt by us.
I also appreciate your insight point. You are very correct, and for the same reasons, this is why, I can tell you, us Hong Kongers actually felt we had changed completely today, since the past few hours. Protestors didn't attack the police. We were orderly, and even when an ambulance was trying to enter a crowded street, everyone automatically made way for the vehicle. Strangers helped each other, bonded with each other. Truck drivers drove their trucks to block off the streets to protect the crowds. Some came with stocks full of water and supplies and said "it's for you guys". Everyone's supporting one another. Even the crowds are calling for the police to go on strike and join us, and not as much name-calling. Few days ago, professors would go to the assemblies of students sitting and offered free lectures. And tonight, a professor went in front of the police and gave free lectures on history and why we're doing this. I've always felt and thought HK isn't a city easy for people to be warm to each other anymore, but what I saw last night felt that despite all the energies, emotions, anger, people are disciplined, and bonded with one another. This is truly how a society should be.
Anyways I know what I said is getting too mushy, but you get the point. And I understand civil disobedience ain't exactly the lawful way, but the same time we can say we ran outta options.
One thing I find very intriguing was, as a psychology student, that the protests seemed to bring us to demonstrate our best behaviour, and I'm surprised.
Re: Chinese General news resource thread
Having no influence over the governance of HK will be unacceptable to Beijing, do the protesters know this? Even if the central government does decide to compromise and give greater election freedoms, it's not like they're just going to leave things there without a say or final veto on important matters.
Unless the protesters want to escalate things towards violence, I doubt Beijing will directly intervene with its own police forces (or things really hit the fan, PLA) either. Afterall, the damage to the economy will be localized to HK anyway, vastly different to 1989, so any economic pains will be endured by the local populace.
All those social media videos and protesters wanting the police to join them are traits of virtually any protest movement. Doubly effective in this case, because democracy-oppression-china-human rights-freedom.
It's always interesting to hear things from another's perspective, air superiorty, but in this case,the protester-tear jerker (no pun intended) accounts of what is going on probably won't move many posters on this forum given its predominantly ML chinese makeup, with vastly different views as to what constitutes reasonable protest and the right of authority to intervene. I have some degree of sympathy, but some posers here, and many on CDF are substantially more cynical.
It will be interesting to see how overseas Chinese both HK and ML respond to each other about this topic.
Having no influence over the governance of HK will be unacceptable to Beijing, do the protesters know this? Even if the central government does decide to compromise and give greater election freedoms, it's not like they're just going to leave things there without a say or final veto on important matters.
Unless the protesters want to escalate things towards violence, I doubt Beijing will directly intervene with its own police forces (or things really hit the fan, PLA) either. Afterall, the damage to the economy will be localized to HK anyway, vastly different to 1989, so any economic pains will be endured by the local populace.
All those social media videos and protesters wanting the police to join them are traits of virtually any protest movement. Doubly effective in this case, because democracy-oppression-china-human rights-freedom.
It's always interesting to hear things from another's perspective, air superiorty, but in this case,the protester-tear jerker (no pun intended) accounts of what is going on probably won't move many posters on this forum given its predominantly ML chinese makeup, with vastly different views as to what constitutes reasonable protest and the right of authority to intervene. I have some degree of sympathy, but some posers here, and many on CDF are substantially more cynical.
It will be interesting to see how overseas Chinese both HK and ML respond to each other about this topic.
Re: Chinese General news resource thread
You didn't ask me, but I'll respond anyway.
Q1: they've successfully changed things through public demonstration in recent years, but there are a few fundamentals that the powers that be simply won't accept. Democracy like what they want, without any oversight from Beijing, almost definitely isn't going to happen -- and if it does, then you can be sure things will come back with a vengeance after one country two systems expires in 2047. Unity has been the bedrock "ideology" (if one wants to call it that) for modern China, with its roots from the opium war when territories became dispossessed. China won't allow the situation to dramatically move away from that, full stop.
Q2: once protests reach a certain level of public disruption, the authorities have the right to use means they see fit to control the crowd. The specific graded mechanisms they use will differ of course, obviously you don't go from regular police to sending in the army overnight. The degree of violence/rioting also plays a role too, of course. If a protest is only disruptive but not excessively violent (whether it be to passers by or protesters or police), and not damaging to property, then a response should be tailored as such. From what I can see, the HKPF's response seems fairly standard compared to police responses in western countries to their own occupy movements.
You didn't ask me, but I'll respond anyway.
Q1: they've successfully changed things through public demonstration in recent years, but there are a few fundamentals that the powers that be simply won't accept. Democracy like what they want, without any oversight from Beijing, almost definitely isn't going to happen -- and if it does, then you can be sure things will come back with a vengeance after one country two systems expires in 2047. Unity has been the bedrock "ideology" (if one wants to call it that) for modern China, with its roots from the opium war when territories became dispossessed. China won't allow the situation to dramatically move away from that, full stop.
Q2: once protests reach a certain level of public disruption, the authorities have the right to use means they see fit to control the crowd. The specific graded mechanisms they use will differ of course, obviously you don't go from regular police to sending in the army overnight. The degree of violence/rioting also plays a role too, of course. If a protest is only disruptive but not excessively violent (whether it be to passers by or protesters or police), and not damaging to property, then a response should be tailored as such. From what I can see, the HKPF's response seems fairly standard compared to police responses in western countries to their own occupy movements.
Brumby
Major
Re: Chinese General news resource thread
I have no problem with speculative money but just not from corrupted sources.
I have no problem with speculative money but just not from corrupted sources.
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