Crisis in the Ukraine

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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Rebels with Fagot ATGM
[video=youtube;5Fb-Elc3Iho]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fb-Elc3Iho&feature=player_embedded[/video]


I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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right now the main Ukraine-related story in Russian Internet concerns yesterday's statement by Putin, who implied that anybody would be an idiot if (s)he didn't consider Kramatorsk
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(does it show? in like north-west corner, anyway:
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)
to belong to Ukraine (and not to
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) -- not a literal translation, but you sure may check the source you believe :)

in case you didn't know: a considerable number of locals from the Kramatorsk area joined Separatists ... and the situation in
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was already tense before that statement: http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/members-club-room/crisis-ukraine-96-6939.html#post309747

Bit of a none story to be honest.
The official Russian position is and has throughout, been in favour of a Unitary Ukraine (minus Crimea obviously).
The Russian position has been to see the fall of the Pro Maidan Government and see the return of a Government that is at the very least neutral, if not actually friendly.

From Putin's perspective, political Novorossiya is a fall back position or even a slow motion way to lose the Maidan Government if it proves more resilient than he expects.
Kramatorsk is a city in Ukraine, it s occupied by the Ukrainian army and so he is only stating that which is both the obvious and his official position.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
From Putin's perspective, political Novorossiya is a fall back position or even a slow motion way to lose the Maidan Government if it proves more resilient than he expects.
.


That all depends on how fast the Maidan Government can spend borrow EU and US money to sustain it. Right now the Ukraine economy has been hit hard from the past years since this all started with the protesters in Kiev.
 
Bit of a none story to be honest.
...

that's what I liked :)

sources including
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reported
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had ordered yesterday an arrest of "Chervonets" (I don't know which meaning of червонец is meant by that nick, so I don't translate) who is (or now I should perhaps say was) a fighter from the group of Motorola (I'm guessing he's not just "a fighter", but he's been like well-known) who in the slanderous video
[video=youtube;yUHTjELaotM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yUHTjELaotM[/video]
says ... many things, for example he implies
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is controlled by
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and
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who provided for Separatists' "Armored Personnel Carriers and weapons and salaries" -- literally said "Chervonets". Is he right? I have no idea.
 
oops, I read about her yesterday in Polish Internet, didn't believe it :) but since now gazeta.ru ran her story ...
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meet Yulia Kharlamova of Nizhny Novgorod, Russia:
harlam-pic510-510x340-9007.jpg
In this interview she confirms she served in the Russian Airborne Forces ("Skiey Infantry",
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) and denies the rest of what Ukrainians say about her :)
 

SampanViking

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I seem to remember asking ages ago for evidence of a "Russian Invasion" of Ukraine weeks ago and never got an answer from anyone.

Well lets try something else for the pro Maidanites here to explain.

Back n Mid July, the Ukrainian army arrived en-force on the outskirts of both Donetsk and Lugansk. Over the following weeks they launched a series of massive armoured strikes to retake the cities. Despite enjoyng overwhelming numerical and firepower supremacy, they failed to penetrate any deeper than some of the outer suburbs and failed to hold most of even these. At the time, the Ukrainians claimed they were making good progress and no mention of the Russian Army was ever made.

Why did they fail to capture these key cities, when all the factors appeared so strongly in their favour?
 

wtlh

Junior Member
I seem to remember asking ages ago for evidence of a "Russian Invasion" of Ukraine weeks ago and never got an answer from anyone.

Well lets try something else for the pro Maidanites here to explain.

Back n Mid July, the Ukrainian army arrived en-force on the outskirts of both Donetsk and Lugansk. Over the following weeks they launched a series of massive armoured strikes to retake the cities. Despite enjoyng overwhelming numerical and firepower supremacy, they failed to penetrate any deeper than some of the outer suburbs and failed to hold most of even these. At the time, the Ukrainians claimed they were making good progress and no mention of the Russian Army was ever made.

Why did they fail to capture these key cities, when all the factors appeared so strongly in their favour?

From some of the reports I have read, the Ukrainian soldiers involved in the operation claimed that the logistic support was appalling and they basically ran out of ammo and supplies at the later stages of the campaign, while the rebels counter attacked and whole units being "abandoned" by Kiev.

The larger the force and the more mechanical the force, the quicker it runs out of steam without sufficient supplies. That is why in reality, tanks and planes means nothing if you cannot sort out the fundamentals like logistics. Generals are always logistic managers first, tacticians second.

It appears to me that initially the rebels just dissolved and avoided large scale resistances against the spearheads and let the government forces advance, and then engaged in classic guerrilla warfare and encirclement tactics and focused in cutting off or severely disrupting their supply lines.

Also compounding difficulty is that:

1. Loyalties in the army are blurred, and many government units really do not want to fire on their own people, and may not really agree with the Maidan movement in heart. Given the Maidan government needed to establish a new defence force (around the core of the neo-nazies), and fired several senior officers in the army, this points to an army not fully in tune with their masters.

2. The government forces did not get much support from the civilian population on the ground. This was the reason why they experienced severe logistic issues within---let's not forget---their OWN country. In Chinese history, the KMT forces in the Chinese civil war between 1945-1949 experienced the same logistic problems---which eventually lead to their total collapse. Basically it was like they were fighting like an invasion force in their own country.
 
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delft

Brigadier
OT
Generals are always logistic managers first, tacticians second.
They should be at any rate.
During a symposium on the Third Anglo-Dutch war and specifically on a naval battle in 1673 when the Dutch fleet defeated the combined English/French fleet I had dinner with the professor of military history at Utrecht University who, as a serving major, later Lt.Col., held weekly military-political propaganda talks in the '50's to which I listened attentively. So what do you ask a military man at a naval occasion? I asked about the logistics of the French army during its invasion of The Netherlands in 1672 by way of Germany and along the Rhine. He said he knew nothing about it. So that makes you wonder about the training of army officers at that period.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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From some of the reports I have read, the Ukrainian soldiers involved in the operation claimed that the logistic support was appalling and they basically ran out of ammo and supplies at the later stages of the campaign, while the rebels counter attacked and whole units being "abandoned" by Kiev.

The larger the force and the more mechanical the force, the quicker it runs out of steam without sufficient supplies. That is why in reality, tanks and planes means nothing if you cannot sort out the fundamentals like logistics. Generals are always logistic managers first, tacticians second.

It appears to me that initially the rebels just dissolved and avoided large scale resistances against the spearheads and let the government forces advance, and then engaged in classic guerrilla warfare and encirclement tactics and focused in cutting off or severely disrupting their supply lines.

Also compounding difficulty is that:

1. Loyalties in the army are blurred, and many government units really do not want to fire on their own people, and may not really agree with the Maidan movement in heart. Given the Maidan government needed to establish a new defence force (around the core of the neo-nazies), and fired several senior officers in the army, this points to an army not fully in tune with their masters.

2. The government forces did not get much support from the civilian population on the ground. This was the reason why they experienced severe logistic issues within---let's not forget---their OWN country. In Chinese history, the KMT forces in the Chinese civil war between 1945-1949 experienced the same logistic problems---which eventually lead to their total collapse. Basically it was like they were fighting like an invasion force in their own country.

Thank you wtlh and a welcome to the thread.
Not a bad stab at an answer at all. Well thought out.
What a pity that certain established posters and lurkers to this thread, did not feel able to make a similar level (or any relevant) contribution themselves.

Maybe your endeavours will encourage them to do so.

In the meantime a video picked up via the Saker website, of a Sunday Night talkshow from Russian Channel 1. This is a very popular, prime time, mainstream programme, with establishment figure guests. Its makes the content all the more fascinating. In Russian (obviously) but with English sub titles.

[video=youtube_share;aGuuorNhzWw]http://youtu.be/aGuuorNhzWw[/video]

I think this is most likely a very good summary of the Russian world view and how it views itself and needs to react to its current problems.

Enjoy
 

Sputnik

New Member
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B0fMvflIIAAU0nJ.jpg:large

:)

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