Crisis in the Ukraine


Status
Not open for further replies.

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Nobody denies the connection, what is denied are the claims of direct Russian military involvement in the fighting. Claims which remain nothing more than allegations with no proof worthy of the name being presented, which of course; were the Russian Army fighting in Ukraine, would be impossible.

Any comments on the riot in Kiev yesterday when the Far Right tried to storm the RADA?
doesn't your own acknowledgement of Russian shelling across the border constitute direct Russian military involvement, I mean limited or not, my point has been all along that some of this has been "helped" along by Mr. Putin's forces?? I never made any statement regarding the quantity, just that there has been some "quality" help given???
 
Stalinists this afternoon informed
(
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
)
in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
situation spins out of control of the leader Plotnicki
(Плотницкий,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
) who doesn't control even Luhanks completely and, my literal translation, "significant part of the units fight according their own understanding" ...
and gazeta.ru informed about some rogue
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
unit:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Interestingly, their ataman (Павел Дремов according to gazeta.ru) seems to be the same Cossack who "openly accused Plotnicki of stealing THE HUMANITARIAN AID" according to the first link above.

What I translated as THE HUMANITARIAN AID (called гуманитарка by "Cassad") is ... oh, that's what had never been in the trucks LOL
 
Last edited:

Miragedriver

Brigadier

Ukrainian nationalists and servicemen of the Azov battalion demonstrate in Kiev to mark the founding of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), a paramilitary partisan movement formed in 1943 to battle for independence against Polish, Soviet and German forces in western Ukraine. The UPA is historically controversial, idolised by Ukrainian nationalists but despised by Russia for collaborating with Nazi forces and fighting the Soviet army.
Picture: GENYA SAVILOV/AFP/Getty Images



I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
doesn't your own acknowledgement of Russian shelling across the border constitute direct Russian military involvement, I mean limited or not, my point has been all along that some of this has been "helped" along by Mr. Putin's forces?? I never made any statement regarding the quantity, just that there has been some "quality" help given???
I am going to come back on this and this so called "August Miracle".

Throughout June, July and August, there were regular instances of border violations by Ukrainian forces with bullets and shells landing on RF territory. There was some damage and some civilian injuries and at least one death. All of this was well and fully documented at the time. Details are on this thread and include visits to scene by OSCE and NATO officials.
Russia made clear in early July it would respond with counter battery fire if these continued and I would not be surprised if they followed up on the threat.
This however is not the same as indirect fire support and even (for the sake of argument) there was some IFS the range would have been limited in its depth to a very few operations and have had no effect on the big battles of July and August in the towns of the Southern Front.

The only battle where IFS may have been an option for affecting the outcome, would have been the Southern Cauldron which was the only major engagement up against the border. I still find this doubtful as when the collapse came after nearly two months and large numbers of troops defected in early August, they escaped by crossing the border into Russia and away from the militia. Well in my experience, people run away from the guns and not towards them and so this makes the IFS argument look shaky to say the least.

On top of this, SDF is still supposed to be a military forum and so expect to read rather more than "Russian Troops" and "the border".

If people want to make serious allegations, then give me the precise date, the precise location, the unit designation that fired and the precise target location and designation. In addition I would expect to be told the kind of artillery used, the munition employed and details of the consequences for the target.
Without these details, its just weak spin and propaganda.

Likewise the "August Miracle" I really dislike when spin doctors try and re-write history and find it especially dumb when they try and re-write a very well documented recent past.

By calling the collapse of the Southern Front the "August Miracle" I read an attempt to try and convince the unwary that this collapse came out of the blue and was wholly contrary to the previous progress of the campaign. Well I am sorry, but I will not mince my words, but such a claim is a LIE! and anybody making it a LIAR!

We saw the collapse of the southern front start from events in July and through August. We saw the Ukrainian Army fail to storm the cities of Donetsk and Lughansk, despite overwhelming numbers and firepower. Nobody was blaming the Russians for that. Further we saw the Ukrainians stalled in every major engagement, starting with the Souther Cauldron, continuing into Shaktarsk, Torez, Krasny Luch, Saur Mogila, Snizhne, Amvrosiivka and of course Ilovaisk.
The fact of the matter is that in none of these engagements, did the Ukraine manage to either take and hold the target settlements, they failed to destroy or even seriously damage the Novorossiyan formations they were fighting. At no point during any of these battles were there claims of Russian interventions. In fact Kiev was trying to spin that it was winning, despite the opposite be manifestly obvious.

Not only did the Ukraine forces lose, they lost hard in these battles, time and time again (details and links in this thread or available from source archives). By late August the Novorossiyans were able to push back and the weakened Ukrainian units on the south folded and were routed. Novorossiyans were able to pus recon forces south all the way to Sea of Azov and secure the entire Donetsk/Russia border.

Not only is there full evidence of how Novorossiya collapsed the Ukrainian southern front without direct Russian intervention, the version of the story put out by Kiev is absurd to the point of the ludicrous. If the Ukrainians were winning and only defeated by massive Russian intervention, then it would have been physically impossible for a Russian force of that significant size to have crossed the border, done the damage, but leave absolutely no physical trace of itself. Again, this is supposed to be a military forum, so please can we have discourse that is based in obvious reality.
Once again I wince at talk of "Russian Troops" without any details of organisation, dates, locations, activity in theatre etc etc.

Remember every adult, including granny, in the warzone has a smart phone with camera. Had combat forces been deployed, it would have been impossible not to have been seen and recorded many many times!

Sorry to sound intemperate, but this sort of thing which is effectively trying to steal/deny the laurels earned by brave fighters, does make me rather angry.
 
...

Sorry to sound intemperate, but this sort of thing which is effectively trying to steal/deny the laurels earned by brave fighters, does make me rather angry.
how are you otherwise, SampanViking?

now I read again what
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

has to say about VOENTORG (this word used as kinda code-word for the Russian Army involvement in Donbass) ... I like most the last paragraph, which I literally translate (also using boldface fonts as in the original text):
"With respect to the "VOENTORG workers", whose presence [in Donbass] the [Kiev] junta tries to prove: officially they aren't there, of course. And officially they won't be there. Well, and I think you got it, and you aren't about to start asking stupid questions."
 

delft

Brigadier
I think the main Russian support for the Novorussians was the inculcation of the type of tactics that might be successful against the Ukrainian army even before the offensive began in April, perhaps even years ago. Its an important type of warfare and some people living in Eastern Ukraine have served in the Russian army. But a major factor in the spectacular success must have been the lack of quality on the other side.
There was also probably detailed information from Russian reconnaissance but any aircraft involved have remained to the East of the border otherwise Washington would have screamed bloody murder.
And then there was Voentorg.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Dozens hurt and arrested after Ukrainian nationalists attack parliament
[video=youtube;teL7CzRwZQM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=teL7CzRwZQM[/video]

[video=youtube;LcTHHuqAf10]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LcTHHuqAf10[/video]



I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
how are you otherwise, SampanViking?

now I read again what
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

has to say about VOENTORG (this word used as kinda code-word for the Russian Army involvement in Donbass) ... I like most the last paragraph, which I literally translate (also using boldface fonts as in the original text):
"With respect to the "VOENTORG workers", whose presence [in Donbass] the [Kiev] junta tries to prove: officially they aren't there, of course. And officially they won't be there. Well, and I think you got it, and you aren't about to start asking stupid questions."
So you think Voentorg is the Russian Army and that whole formations are made available on that basis?

No, and nothing even close.

Everybody knows Voentorg exists, but nobody is actually able to describe with authority how it operates.
The closest possible option to your thinking (but not the most likely) would be a private military contractor that provides services in return for payment (wherever such payment comes from).
I suspect more realistically that Voentorg is more like an official blind eye, where the Novorossiyans are able to buy black market equipment and supplies and be able to take them across the border. Likewise it is likely to be the nod and the wink that enables Russian Regulars to take extended leave and volunteer for the Militia.
Is there also a line of credit that enables the purchases to be made? possibly. Are there specialists and advisers plus the provision of battlefield intel etc - undoubtedly.

Nothing however that goes beyond the provision of the tools to do the job and very far short of the "Russian Invasion" we were being sold in August. Do bear in mind that much of the noise came from a rabid fantasist in the form of the recently sacked Ukrainian Defence Minister Valerii Geletei, the man that nnot only claimed full Russian Invasion on all fronts, but that they used nuclear weapons at Lughansk Airport. The guy was a total fruitcake, which is why Poroshenko dumped him before he could wreck his election campaign.
 
right now the main Ukraine-related story in Russian Internet concerns yesterday's statement by Putin, who implied that anybody would be an idiot if (s)he didn't consider Kramatorsk
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(does it show? in like north-west corner, anyway:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
)
to belong to Ukraine (and not to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
) -- not a literal translation, but you sure may check the source you believe :)

in case you didn't know: a considerable number of locals from the Kramatorsk area joined Separatists ... and the situation in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
was already tense before that statement: http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/members-club-room/crisis-ukraine-96-6939.html#post309747
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top