Crisis in the Ukraine

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Dannhill

Junior Member
I know some of you, including me, likes to visit (vk.com/soutukraine) but do note that you should do so with full awareness of the numbers of +18 videos they have up there.

Just saw a gory one on dead Kiev soldeirs and another on civilians killed by Kiev artillery bombardment of a bus station.

Don't let your kids go there.
 
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Dannhill

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No gory stuff here but shows a shell burst that just missed a group of civilians. Can't imagine the outcome if it landed right in their midst.

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Kiev artillery indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas yesterday hit a school and a passenger minibus resulting in multiple dead and wounded in both instances.

You can see the results on Cassad and VK but I will not provide the links as it's pretty gruesome.
 
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delft

Brigadier
Blackstone said:
What's your point? Name one nation that isn't hypocritical from time to time? I for one am glad US puts her national interests first and foremost, and I suspect you feel the same for whatever you're from.
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That led to the Neurenberg trial and I hope the criminals of the Kiev regime will be judged by the International Criminal Court in The Hague or, even better, the highest court in Kiev.
 
Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
Air Force Brat said:
I can see your point Stoney, but Mr. Putin is cold, calculating, and indifferent to those innocents who have been caught in the middle of this little adventure, which seems to find his fingerprints all over the "tiller". The deliberate taking of "innocent" life is always evil at its core, whether perpetrated by the good guys, or the bad guys, as to the US/NATO demonizing Mr. Putin, you almost make him sound like an innocent victim, and that is a stretch buddy?
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Nope Brat, I don't see Putin as the victim, and I have no problems believing he's a stone cold killer dedicated to restoring Russia's as a great power. Therefore, I have no delusions of Putin the ex-KGB enforcer. I meant to say NATO reneged on a "promise" not to expand into Russia's traditional buffer zones, which include Ukraine, Georgia, and the Baltic States. Putin reacted to Western encroachment as any Russian autocrat would have.

So, why should Western officials and media tone down their rhetoric against Putin? Because demonizing him needlessly make negotiations harder and drags out a conflict Ukraine can't win on their own, and NATO wouldn't get involved. Don't get me wrong, I'm not personally against demonizing Putin, and I definitely see him as a threat to the United States, but Putin doesn't seem like the kind of autocrat to forgive and forget public insults, so before we go down that road, we better have a plan to deal with the consequences. And we don't.
 
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Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
Blackstone said:
It's harsh to suggest overlooking or even supporting some heinous acts in the name of national interest, but that's exactly how nations should act. It's a slippery slope, to be sure, but leaders are elected/elevated to navigate slippery slopes, and national interest is king.
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now I see more ... so your post probably was from the category "what could've been done differently in the past" (and in the thread 'World War II Historical/Startegy Discussions' for example I discussed sacrificing hundreds of thousands of soldiers or ramming a strong battleship by the weaker battleship which was loosing a duel :) this is Military Forum, so what?) and I hope you didn't mean that massacre was OK or something ... it coincided with your post that yesterday I recalled how tense October/November 1989 was in Czechoslovakia (at that time in Poland
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has been already formed, in Communistic Germany
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was about to fall etc.) where a deployment of tanks into the streets was one of the options very seriously considered by the local Politburo ... never happened, Blackstone, neither the US "overlooked"
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to Moderator(s): I know I went off-topic, I'm sorry
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Blackstone said:
Nope Brat, I don't see Putin as the victim, and I have no problems believing he's a stone cold killer dedicated to restoring Russia's as a great power. Therefore, I have no delusions of Putin the ex-KGB enforcer. I meant to say NATO reneged on a "promise" not to expand into Russia's traditional buffer zones, which include Ukraine, Georgia, and the Baltic States. Putin reacted to Western encroachment as any Russian autocrat would have.

So, why should Western officials and media tone down their rhetoric against Putin? Because demonizing him needlessly make negotiations harder and drags out a conflict Ukraine can't win on their own, and NATO wouldn't get involved. Don't get me wrong, I'm not personally against demonizing Putin, and I definitely see him as a threat to the United States, but Putin doesn't seem like the kind of autocrat to forgive and forget public insults, so before we go down that road, we better have a plan to deal with the consequences. And we don't.
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Yes, I totally get that, from our Pacific Pivot on down this team talks way to much, right down to ISIS being the JV team???? better to be thought an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt???

on the other hand, ignoring genocide, isn't an option in this very ugly world we live in,,,,,it must be delt a killing blow every where it is found, that has been policy, and should continue to be policy!
 
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Dannhill

Junior Member
There is talk that EU has threatened Moscow with more sanctions if the separatist militia takes Donetsk airport which is in a matter of days having pinned the Kiev forces to a few buildings. I guess all those civilians being killed on a daily basis by Kiev artillery in and around the Donetsk airport is just another Putin lie.

Reported that 20 civilians killed and another 27 injured yesterday.

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Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
Air Force Brat said:
Yes, I totally get that, from our Pacific Pivot on down this team talks way to much, right down to ISIS being the JV team???? better to be thought an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt???

on the other hand, ignoring genocide, isn't an option in this very ugly world we live in,,,,,it must be delt a killing blow every where it is found, that has been policy, and should continue to be policy!
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At the risk of sounding crass, generally speaking, I believe individuals should act on ethics, morality, and values, but nations should act on national interests, even in situations where policies may be repugnant to many or most of its citizens. Yes, there's the danger of slippery slopes, and good, decent, and effective leaders will need to carefully manage them.

We agree on need to act against genocides in the name of humanity, with the guideline of achievable objectives and not leave the people worse off than before the intervention.
 
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delft

Brigadier
The website of my favorite radio station carries since two hours an item about a building of the Red Cross in Donetsk being hit by a mortar bomb during an attack by the Ukie armed forces. A Swiss citizen is said to have been killed. It was the first attack on the center of Donetsk since the beginning of the truce. Another target was the TV broadcaster. Source: Interfax.
 
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