Chinese purchase of Su-35


Biscuits

Junior Member
Registered Member
This isn’t about China, it’s about making sure Russia has ample money to keep their military running and orders to build their best fighters.

A strong Russia gives China an ideal geographic position. It’s east coast is already very well defended, the weakness is in the northwest. Through Russia, the weakness is covered up and instead becomes an impenetrable land route.

This strategic advantage is invaluable. If Russia is overrun, China becomes vulnerable.
 

gelgoog

Senior Member
Registered Member
I think it is more like the Su-35 deal makes sense in the short term.

There might be something about throwing the Russians a bone, but the Chinese government would not buy the weapons system if they thought it was poor value. I think people underestimate the capability of the Chinese to be hard negotiators on deals.

The Russians have also finally opened up to Chinese weapons components. They use Chinese marine diesels in their Buyan corvettes for example. There is a lot of room for further cooperation in the naval domain I think. For example the Russians have developed advanced nuclear marine reactors over the past decade like the RITM-200 which are latest generation. The Chinese could benefit a lot from licensing this reactor for their carrier program. On the other hand the Russians are having issues with their LPD and LHD programs so they would likely benefit from licensing the Type 071 or 075.

The Russians could import Chinese semiconductors. They already did import some Chinese semiconductor tools in the past.
The Chinese should import Russian tanks or at least get Russian tech assistance to design a modern heavy MBT chassis. Chinese tanks are way too obsolete. Once the Chinese Navy is more developed I think they will have to upgrade the Army component further. For example I see no reason why the Chinese should not import the T-14/15 once it becomes available. Even if the T-14/15 is only purchased for evaluation it would still be valuable.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
This isn’t about China, it’s about making sure Russia has ample money to keep their military running and orders to build their best fighters.

A strong Russia gives China an ideal geographic position. It’s east coast is already very well defended, the weakness is in the northwest. Through Russia, the weakness is covered up and instead becomes an impenetrable land route.

This strategic advantage is invaluable. If Russia is overrun, China becomes vulnerable.
Do people really think that a measly 24 additional Su-35s would do so much as make a dent in Russia's economic woes?
 

Biscuits

Junior Member
Registered Member
Do people really think that a measly 24 additional Su-35s would do so much as make a dent in Russia's economic woes?
Not on the larger picture, which must be fixed by Russia itself. However, it will kickstart Su-35 production again and make life easier for the RU airforce.
 

Viktor Jav

Senior Member
Registered Member
Not on the larger picture, which must be fixed by Russia itself. However, it will kickstart Su-35 production again and make life easier for the RU airforce.
Therein lies the nub, China has already bought 24 su-35s already, the last of which has been delivered to them barely a year ago, which would mean that production was active until at least then. While Russia has already been making Su-35s for themselves for a while as well, having at least 70 units in service.
So in a way China had already did its part to support the Su-35 production. IMHO, this is less about "jumpstarting" Su-35 production than it is a some what desperate attempt to make a few extra dollars on the side for Russia.

If China turns down the offer to buy more Su-35s, it would seem that they bought the first batch solely for the engines, which is something alot of detractors likes to focus on, and if they agree to it, it would be seen as the China's own fighters are coming up short.Talk about a no win situation, (Just pointing out how this would all be seen by the West and/or potential Chinese customers for fighters like the J-10).
 
I think it is more like the Su-35 deal makes sense in the short term.

There might be something about throwing the Russians a bone, but the Chinese government would not buy the weapons system if they thought it was poor value. I think people underestimate the capability of the Chinese to be hard negotiators on deals.

The Russians have also finally opened up to Chinese weapons components. They use Chinese marine diesels in their Buyan corvettes for example. There is a lot of room for further cooperation in the naval domain I think. For example the Russians have developed advanced nuclear marine reactors over the past decade like the RITM-200 which are latest generation. The Chinese could benefit a lot from licensing this reactor for their carrier program. On the other hand the Russians are having issues with their LPD and LHD programs so they would likely benefit from licensing the Type 071 or 075.

The Russians could import Chinese semiconductors. They already did import some Chinese semiconductor tools in the past.
The Chinese should import Russian tanks or at least get Russian tech assistance to design a modern heavy MBT chassis. Chinese tanks are way too obsolete. Once the Chinese Navy is more developed I think they will have to upgrade the Army component further. For example I see no reason why the Chinese should not import the T-14/15 once it becomes available. Even if the T-14/15 is only purchased for evaluation it would still be valuable.
In which case it is about opening the door wider to longer term and broader military industry co-operation. I don't think the PLA needs better tanks as IFVs and more and better helicopters.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Junior Member
Registered Member
This isn’t about China, it’s about making sure Russia has ample money to keep their military running and orders to build their best fighters.

A strong Russia gives China an ideal geographic position. It’s east coast is already very well defended, the weakness is in the northwest. Through Russia, the weakness is covered up and instead becomes an impenetrable land route.

This strategic advantage is invaluable. If Russia is overrun, China becomes vulnerable.
Absolutely correct, but the best way to ensure this is to provide economic support to Russia through increased trade and investment.
 

gelgoog

Senior Member
Registered Member
Therein lies the nub, China has already bought 24 su-35s already, the last of which has been delivered to them barely a year ago, which would mean that production was active until at least then. While Russia has already been making Su-35s for themselves for a while as well, having at least 70 units in service.
So in a way China had already did its part to support the Su-35 production. IMHO, this is less about "jumpstarting" Su-35 production than it is a some what desperate attempt to make a few extra dollars on the side for Russia.

If China turns down the offer to buy more Su-35s, it would seem that they bought the first batch solely for the engines, which is something alot of detractors likes to focus on, and if they agree to it, it would be seen as the China's own fighters are coming up short.Talk about a no win situation, (Just pointing out how this would all be seen by the West and/or potential Chinese customers for fighters like the J-10).
Well, to be honest, I am kind of expecting Su-35 production to be terminated in like 2 years if no international orders come out.

Why? IIRC the Su-35s are being produced at KnAAZ the same facility which is going to serial produce the Su-57. If no Su-35 orders are incoming I suspect they will simply start converting the Su-35 facilities to produce the Su-57 earlier. The production cost of the Su-57 is similar to the Su-35 so it makes no sense for the Russian state to order the Su-35 once the materials and parts supplies for the Su-57 come online and existing orders are done.
The Su-30SM is produced at another larger facility the Irkutsk Aviation Plant. The Su-30SM is a lot cheaper than the Su-35. It is expected the Su-30SM will be the favored airplane by the Russian Air Force and Navy to replace their older aircraft because of the lower production costs. Some variants with Su-35 engines and other Su-35 components may also be made. From what I have heard the Russians have been unwilling to bulk sell the Su-35 engines to the Chinese. I suspect that will only happen once Su-57 exports become available.
 
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Viktor Jav

Senior Member
Registered Member
Well, to be honest, I am kind of expecting Su-35 production to be terminated in like 2 years if no international orders come out.

Why? IIRC the Su-35s are being produced at KnAAZ the same facility which is going to serial produce the Su-57. If no Su-35 orders are incoming I suspect they will simply start converting the Su-35 facilities to produce the Su-57 earlier. The production cost of the Su-57 is similar to the Su-35 so it makes no sense for the Russian state to order the Su-35 once the materials and parts supplies for the Su-57 come online and existing orders are done.
The Su-30SM is produced at another larger facility the Irkutsk Aviation Plant. The Su-30SM is a lot cheaper than the Su-35. It is expected the Su-30SM will be the favored airplane by the Russian Air Force and Navy to replace their older aircraft because of the lower production costs. Some variants with Su-35 engines and other Su-35 components may also be made. From what I have heard the Russians have been unwilling to bulk sell the Su-35 engines to the Chinese. I suspect that will only happen once Su-57 exports become available.
That is a likely scenario, if Russia can get a 80% performance out of a uprated Su-30MS for 60% of the price it would be a good deal for them.
 

siegecrossbow

Brigadier
Staff member
Super Moderator
No request for second batch, for now.

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Rostec is forging ahead with efforts to sell advanced combat aircraft on the international market, although US sanctions present a challenge.

The Russian defence conglomerate has offered both the Sukhoi Su-35 and Su-57 to Turkey, according to chief executive Sergey Chemezov.

“As soon as they make a decision, we will be ready to sell both the Su-35 and Su-57,” he says.

Washington bumped Turkey from the Lockheed Martin F-35 programme over its acquisition of the Russian Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumf surface-to-air missile system. US defence officials were concerned that the presence of the S-400 in Turkey would compromise the US fighter.

Chemezov, speaking to reporters at the Rostec stand, offered a cryptic view on Indonesia’s plans to acquire the Su-35.

“The agreements are signed and all the formalities have been fulfilled, so we are expecting the contract to start… It doesn’t depend on us. It’s as soon as the Indonesian side decides.”

In 2017, Jakarta said it would buy 11 Su-35s for $1.14 billion; a cash and barter deal that would likely include a mix of local farm products such as palm oil and coffee.

In late August, a Rostec official said that the US Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) has made some countries, including Indonesia, wary of buying Russian equipment.

Despite CAATSA, Chemezov said overseas defence sales are on an upward trend, and he is also optimistic in areas such as transport aircraft.

“This shows that our products are of higher quality, more competitive, and reliable,” he says. “As a result of our state programmes of armament, we have new samples we can offer for export, and importantly we have never, ever linked [sales] to any political issues. So, the supply of armaments is never linked to political expediency or conditions.”

In addition, Chemezov dismissed reports that China plans to add additional Su-35s beyond the 24 it has received.

“If there is a [Chinese] request, of course we will be ready to sell more, but so far a request is not yet there,” he says.
 

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