China demographics thread.


ZeEa5KPul

Major
Registered Member
The problem with breeding and raising children in mass state-run facilities is that it breaks down the fundamental fabrics of society, which is the institution of the family. Not the "nuclear family" that the West promotes, but the extended, clan-based family that humanity has evolved around for hundreds of thousands of years.
I could not disagree more. I appreciate the seriousness of your response and I don't mean to belittle you at all by saying this, but you have a fundamentally conservative worldview I don't share at all in that you think the answers to social ills lie backward. In my view the answers - if there are any - lie forward, not back. As you ably argued in your prior post, capitalism destroyed the old familial and clan-based attachments communities had. The new relations of production detached people from their land and packed them into factories, and eventually into the skyscraper shoeboxes of the modern city.

I applaud capitalism for having done this. I don't have any sentimental attachments to old traditions and relationships, and despite its pathologies capitalism has managed to raise human productivity and technological advancement to heights antecedent societies couldn't have dreamt. These relationships have become untenable; there are still clan-based societies that demonstrate by their example just what can be expected from them in the modern age: Syria and Libya.

My proposal replaces both the backward petty regionalism and tribalism of the clan-based social fabric and the cultural wasteland of capitalism with a much better fabric. These children would grow up with the idea of China itself as their family and understand their duty to it.
The family is the foundation of society. Every social function derives from it. Your first and strongest relationships come from your family. They form the bed rock of bonds from which other relationships grow, the basis of cultural transmission, and the most basic reason for collaboration. This latter aspect is particularly important, because children learn to care about others through their interactions with their family, who provide them with love without condition. You can't get that from hired nurses.
That depends on how you define "family." As I pointed out above, these children would grow up with the idea of the state as their extended family and themselves as their immediate family.

There is a loose historical precedent to this: the janissaries of the Ottoman Empire. These were military units famed for their cohesion and discipline formed by abducting young children from Christian families, converting them to Islam, and raising them in military camps (the legacy of this institution is a large part of the reason there's such hatred between Muslims and Christians in the Balkans today). These children formed very close bonds with one another and eventually became a powerful political force.

Of course, in my idea the children wouldn't be abducted but born to surrogate mothers and they would be raised to be scientists and engineers (primarily, they could of course choose to study whatever they wish once they were old enough to make the decision), not soldiers.
Children without families, who grow up in orphanages, are often "broken"; they suffer from problems like persistent insecurity, anxiety, delinquency, depression, anger, and aggression. Even if this can be solved with better institutional care, there is still no telling what the effects on society at large will be. When these children graduate as adults and begin to interact with natural families, it is likely there will be conflict and resentment. That could cause serious social problems and divides within society, and the consequences are not in any way predictable.
As I stated previously, that's a function of the children being unwanted rather than being raised in orphanages per se. Unwanted children born to conventional families often exhibit the same pathologies.
Just as importantly, however, you don't need to go this extreme. Solving the modern fertility problem is just about changing the reward incentive. Fix the addiction to Western consumerism. Reward the family over the individual. Send the signal to single people that they can either start families themselves, or see their extra income go to support those that do.

Most likely, the above would work; and if it doesn't, then we can talk about extreme solutions.
That's reasonable. I was motivated by a desire to solve this demographic problem in its most extreme, caricatured manifestation because it's the only argument China-haters have with even a semblance of validity, so I accept that my solution has a radical character. I feel better knowing that it's sitting in the desk of some government planning bureau and can be pulled out should the need arise.
 

Jiang ZeminFanboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
Xi Jinping about family values

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Filial piety is a traditional virtue very much valued by Chinese society. President Xi Jinping, also general secretary of the Communist Party of China Central Committee and chairman of the Central Military Commission, has on many occasions stressed the importance of family virtues and traditions.

The following are some highlights of his quotes:

-- A family is the smallest unit of a nation while a nation is thousands of families put together.

-- We should promote filial piety and family harmony, encourage people to take on family responsibilities, cultivate fine family traditions, and take care of the elderly.

-- Mothers should pass on to their children the passion for study, the spirit of hard work, and the love of the motherland to help the young generation nurture good character and grow healthily to become adults who contribute to the country and the people.

-- We need to help women strike a balance between family and work to become women of the new era who can take up social responsibilities while contributing to their families.
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As Spring Festival ends, president's reminder hits home

The weeklong Spring Festival holiday ended on Wednesday after the reunion of numerous Chinese families around the world. And as President Xi Jinping put it, such family reunions are important to fulfill the Chinese Dream of national rejuvenation.

"During Spring Festival, when members of a family get together, we feel that reunion is happiness and unity is strength," Xi said at a gathering on Feb 14, two days ahead of Spring Festival.

Spring Festival, or Lunar New Year, is regarded as the most important traditional festival for those of Chinese origin, characterized by family reunions, feasts and performances.

"We should nurture and practice core socialist values, foster the traditional virtues of the Chinese nation and love both family and the country," said Xi, who is also general secretary of the Communist Party of China Central Committee and chairman of the Central Military Commission.

The president urged the people to integrate their personal and family dreams with the Chinese Dream of national rejuvenation.

"We should pool the wisdom and strength of more than 1.3 billion Chinese people in more than 400 million households to strive for the great success of socialism with Chinese characteristics for a new era and realize the Chinese Dream of national rejuvenation," he said.

Family bonds stressed

Xi has stressed the importance of family bonds, family love and family values in his speeches in recent years.

While addressing the annual Spring Festival greetings on Jan 26, 2017, Xi called on the nation to love families and friends. Love should reach to every family and bring warmth to all Chinese like a spring breeze blowing across the nation, he said.

"The Chinese people have always valued love and high morality," Xi said. He urged people not to neglect their families, comrades and loved ones, no matter how busy they are in their work.

In his Lunar New Year greetings on Feb 17, 2015, Xi stressed family bonds and family education.

Xi said that Chinese traditions and virtues of family harmony and affection should not be forgotten so as to ensure that the young grow up healthily and senior citizens are taken care of.

"Family is the basic cell of society and the first school of our life," Xi said. No matter how time has changed, the family value, family education and family building must be stressed so that the millions of families become important points for national development, ethnical progress and social harmony, he added.

The president has highlighted the importance of family and stressed family bonds, family values and family education on many occasions.

Noted in report

In his report to the 19th CPC National Congress, Xi called for efforts to cultivate and observe core socialist values through such measures as encouraging extensive public involvement, starting with families and children.

"We will encourage our people to strive for excellence and to develop stronger virtues, respect the elderly, love families and be loyal to the country and the people," Xi said in the report.

While meeting with representatives to the first National Conference of Model Families in December 2016, Xi told a story about family education. The conference was the first of its kind to honor model families selected nationwide. A total of 300 model families won the honor.

"When I was a child, my mother gave me a picture-story book series-The Legend of Yue Fei. One of its more than 10 volumes illustrates Yue Fei's mother tattooing four characters meaning 'serve the country with the utmost loyalty' across his back," Xi said, adding that the story deeply impressed him.

Through the story, Xi told parents to pass down sound moral values to their children from an early age, help them cultivate sound minds and ensure their healthy growth so that they will be useful to the country when they grow up.

"Parents should instruct their children through word and deed, giving them both knowledge and virtue and practicing what they teach. They should help their children button the first button in their lifetime and take the first step on the ladder of life," Xi said.

Only by realizing the Chinese dream of national rejuvenation can the dreams of families come true, Xi added, calling on the people to integrate their love for the family with their love for the nation.

Museum established

He Yaomin, vice-president of Renmin University of China, said that Xi has highlighted the significance of family values in cultivating socialism's core values.

To implement Xi's important instructions on family values, Renmin University of China has established the country's first museum of family letters, he said, adding that the museum has played an important role in promoting positive family values.

Tian Xueli, deputy Party secretary of Liaoning Daily, said that as a Party-run newspaper, it has shouldered its responsibility in promoting traditional Chinese culture, including family values.

"General Secretary Xi Jinping has stressed that no matter how the times change, we should always respect family values," he said.

In January, Liaoning Daily published a set of six books that include nearly 200 letters from family members, such as from a son to a father or a husband to a wife, and more than 100 family stories.

Through these letters, the books show the significance of family values in the process of practicing socialism's core values and the passing on of traditional culture from generation to generation.

Value vital to fight graft

In his speech at the Sixth Plenary Session of the 18th CPC Central Commission for Discipline Inspection in October, Xi said some leading officials have been found encouraging their family members to accept bribes and the children of many officials have made illegal gains by using the influence of their parents.

"Degraded family value is always an important cause of officials gravely violating discipline and laws," Xi said.

For example, Liu Decheng, son of Liu Tienan, former vice-minister of the National Development and Reform Commission, accepted bribes including money, a Porsche car and a villa in suburban Beijing. Liu Tienan was sentenced in December 2014 to life imprisonment and his son also was tried.

While addressing the first National Conference of Model Families in December 2016, Xi called on top officials to take the lead in maintaining family values and learning from role models such as Jiao Yulu, Gu Wenchang and Yang Shanzhou.

Leading officials and cadres at all levels should teach their children and families to be law-abiding, frugal and self-reliant, Xi said.
 

Tianlong

New Member
Registered Member
This forum really suffers from the lack of emojis because a yawn would be particularly apt here. Apparently asking for a serious critique is asking too much.
I take that as a No. You are as far removed from the idea of raising a non-sociopathic child as humanly possible. This - of course - has implications for your "idea", which does not warrant serious critique because of its obvious, infantile, even troll-esque, inadequacies.

No, you are not the guy with the brillant idea to solve this problem. You are probably the guy with the least amount of conceptual insight into the dynamics of healthy demographics I ever witnessed.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
So many philosophical and sci-fi discussions about solving demographic problems when someone has already found a solution to that. Surprise, its the Republicans lol.

Ban abortion, ban contraceptives and thats your demographics problems solved. For all the big talk, I have still not seen a man who would be willing to endure a lifetime of not having sex over not having children.

Unless humankind suddenly makes an (re)evolutionary leap, you can always depend on man's lust over women to drive your country's population growth
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
A 15-week abortion ban is an interesting idea.
What would be interesting is seeing the fertility rate on the US states which have prohibited abortion. Any big jump, and I don't think any policy maker concerned about demographics would ignore that

Especially for China, that would single handedly solve its demographic issues
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Around 9.7m abortions are carried out each year in China, according to official statistics, yielding an abortion rate of roughly 28 per 1,000 women
 

ZeEa5KPul

Major
Registered Member
which does not warrant serious critique because of its obvious, infantile, even troll-esque, inadequacies.
Just as you took my response to mean "no", I'll take yours to mean you lack the intellectual capacity to formulate a serious critique of my proposal or anything else, really. And given your posting history on this forum, I wouldn't bring up trolling if I were you.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I don't think abortion bans are a good idea at all. People who wanted to abort typically do so because they don't want to and/or cannot take care of a baby. Those with means will fly out to neighboring countries to do it anyway draining the economy. Forcing the people who don't even have the means to avoid the abortion ban to have kids may add more kids who become social burdens rather than contributors raised by healthy willing parents. The only times when an abortion ban will have the intended effect is if the parents were on the fence and were thus convinced to not do something illegal or if having a baby changed the outlook of initially unwilling parents. The latter is likely more significant.
 

Abominable

Captain
Registered Member
I don't think abortion bans are a good idea at all. People who wanted to abort typically do so because they don't want to and/or cannot take care of a baby. Those with means will fly out to neighboring countries to do it anyway draining the economy. Forcing the people who don't even have the means to avoid the abortion ban to have kids may add more kids who become social burdens rather than contributors raised by healthy willing parents. The only times when an abortion ban will have the intended effect is if the parents were on the fence and were thus convinced to not do something illegal or if having a baby changed the outlook of initially unwilling parents. The latter is likely more significant.
Abortion bans are typically very successful, most people don't break the law or go abroad and just have the child.

I think Israel has a good system for reducing abortions. It's technically legal but Israel has very low rates because of religious and social coercion. Mothers are encouraged not to have abortions and are given incentives to bear the child for adoption or fostering.

The biggest problem with banning abortions to increase birth rates is a significant number of them will be done for medical reasons. For example an ectopic pregnancy is recorded as an abortion, but there isn't any other medical choice. A lot of parents abort because of medical defects.

So 10 million or so abortions being banned will likely not result in 10 million more births.
 

supercat

Senior Member
China is really in trouble this time, tfr can't easily improve no matter how much you try to give benefits example is japan, and scandinavian countries, one child policy has drastically changed social norms where one child is now more preferable.
China's initial trial with subsidies for new born babies seems to have some positive effect:
The birth rate in Panzhihua has increased by 1.62 percent over the previous year since the subsidy policy started, Tang said.
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