China and India relationship

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Bellum_Romanum

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After the 2019 Balakot episode, Christine Fair told Indians that they lost, and they lost badly. She said India's claims of success were BS, and that the PAF shocked India with its response and dominated. Ever since then, she gets a free pass from me lolz.
Oh that's true. I did see that interview as well and the person interviewing her was gobsmacked because he probably thought he was going to hear the usual Pakistan bashing from her, but unfortunately for him and the rest of the Jai Hind fellas she took a 180 degree turn and pretty much stated nothing but the facts as they unfolded. She must have finally been over the Pakistani man who broke her heart or perhaps they got back together? Lolz just kidding.
 

natnairda68

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China had already picked Pakistan before 1962, but Pakistan was too stupid to capitalize on it. Most people today don't know that China invited Pakistan to join the 1962 War, but Pakistan was a complete idiot at the time and refused. I've heard Pakistani generals on TV, when they are (rarely) questioned on this point, they respond by saying that the Pakistani Army wasn't expecting war in 1962 and wasn't operationally prepared. But that's a ridiculous excuse on every level. Why wasn't the Army "prepared"? That's literally their entire job. And if you're not prepared for a joint-campaign in 1962, why bother starting a war alone 3 years later? The correct answer is that they were idiots.

Here's a couple of other examples of our stupidity: General Ayub (the idiot we had in charge) refused to start Pakistan's nuclear program in the 60s, when the Nobel Prize winning physicist Abdus Salam advised him to do so. (Ayub didn't think Pakistan would ever need nuclear weapons lolz.) Ayub was the same guy who in the 1965 War recalled the front-line general leading the armored offensive in the Chamb sector, right as we were about to cut off Kashmir from India, because he didn't like him, so he put his best friend in charge (who later also headed the 1971 debacle.) This delay stalled the entire offensive in 1965 (which up to that point was resulting in a decisive victory). This was the quality of our "generals" at the time.

Given all of the above, the question arises, why did China "pick" Pakistan? I think it's because of some key factors right after Independence which influenced Mao and Zhou Enlai's calculus. 1) Pakistan had accepted China's territorial claims right from the beginning and even gave away territory to China which we captured from India in 1947, without asking for anything in return. 2) Pakistan was one of the first countries to recognize PRC as the rightful government of China and ended relations with Taiwan. These two factors, I think, led China to the same conclusion early on, that Nixon-Kissinger reached later: Pakistanis may be childishly stupid at times, but we aren't duplicitous (well, at least not until we get backstabbed first, e.g. by America in the 90s, at which point, we will find a way to f*ck you over somehow lolz.)

In any case, it seems like the scale of stupidity is starting to tilt in our favor finally. As Pakistan has gotten smarter over time, India has gotten dumber. Case in point:

Screenshot_20210917-233805_Chrome.jpgBoth China & Pakistan had ceded some territory to each other. Pakistan had ceded Shaksgam Valley to China & China had ceded Hunza grazing grounds to Pakistan.
 

Mohsin77

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View attachment 77230Both China & Pakistan had ceded some territory to each other. Pakistan had ceded Shaksgam Valley to China & China had ceded Hunza grazing grounds to Pakistan.

Oh interesting, I didn't realize it was an exchange of land, I thought it was mostly going to be land that China claimed from the British Raj historically.
 

badoc

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View attachment 77230Both China & Pakistan had ceded some territory to each other. Pakistan had ceded Shaksgam Valley to China & China had ceded Hunza grazing grounds to Pakistan.

Oh interesting, I didn't realize it was an exchange of land, I thought it was mostly going to be land that China claimed from the British Raj historically.
From what I read and understand from what is posted.
1, China ceded 1942 sq km to Pakistan.
2, Pakistan DID NOT cede any land to China but will "recognize Chinese Soveriegnty" over disputed land, Shaksgam Valley, controlled by China.
.
 

natnairda68

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Attached herewith is the British India Railway Map in 1909. It is noted that South Tibet was never ever in that map. In 1914 the opium dealers had wilfully drawn a straight line parallel to Northern Bhutan to claim that part of territory as NEFA vide an illegal treaty with Tibet (not ratified by then a weak China).

To make matters worse, a British fraudster by the name of Olaf Caroe had redrawn the line northwards beyond the original Macmahon Line. Not surprisingly India accepted this deception with glee & as a point of reference as their northeast border with China.

Fast forward post 1949 after the river polluter's independence, being a serial expansionist they immediately annexed Tawang & unashamedly incorporated NEFA as their self proclaimed sacred mother land. In 1972, NEFA was later renamed Arunachal Pradesh by the serial squatter & they continue to conveniently create new maps & burn old maps, if such acts suits them.

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tallgamer

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From what I read and understand from what is posted.
1, China ceded 1942 sq km to Pakistan.
2, Pakistan DID NOT cede any land to China but will "recognize Chinese Soveriegnty" over disputed land, Shaksgam Valley, controlled by China.
.
34000 sqkm ceded by Pakistan to China in exchange.
Pretty good deal for the Chinese. I bet they wish all their neighbors were this brave.

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ougoah

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34000 sqkm ceded by Pakistan to China in exchange.
Pretty good deal for the Chinese. I bet they wish all their neighbors were this brave.

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Right so Pakistan and China exchanged land. Both ceded and mutually agreed and moved on. Land that was claimed was ceded. China ceded land to Pakistan and Pakistan ceded land to China.

WRT Aksai Chin, India claims Chinese land which Indian never administered. Land which Tibet and China administered. Since India claimed this, China claims Arunachal Pradesh despite that being Indian land (personal view) and would be dropped or "ceded" once India stops claiming Aksai Chin.
 

tallgamer

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Right so Pakistan and China exchanged land. Both ceded and mutually agreed and moved on. Land that was claimed was ceded. China ceded land to Pakistan and Pakistan ceded land to China.

WRT Aksai Chin, India claims Chinese land which Indian never administered. Land which Tibet and China administered. Since India claimed this, China claims Arunachal Pradesh despite that being Indian land (personal view) and would be dropped or "ceded" once India stops claiming Aksai Chin.
The agreement between Pakistan and China was signed in 1963 after the indo China conflict.
Ceding such a large area voluntarily is never done by any country. Pakistan is the only exception. In the article above , the details are given nicely of how the Pakistanis became worried from the 1950s about the Chinese claims.
I can tell you frankly no Indian government can ever act like this and get away.
If Chinese want more Indian land , it will be solely through force.
 

ougoah

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The agreement between Pakistan and China was signed in 1963 after the indo China conflict.
Ceding such a large area voluntarily is never done by any country. Pakistan is the only exception. In the article above , the details are given nicely of how the Pakistanis became worried from the 1950s about the Chinese claims.
I can tell you frankly no Indian government can ever act like this and get away.
If Chinese want more Indian land , it will be solely through force.

It's the Indians that want more Chinese land. Aksai Chin has never been administered by India and yet India claims it because the British randomly drew lines in the map unilaterally before they left India. China was invited to discuss but chose not to participate because we're talking about an invading colonial force after all.

China's claim on Indian land - Arunachal Pradesh, was only done after India's claims on Aksai Chin. In one of those, since you claim my land I will claim a chunk of yours.

As for Pakistan, like I said, both China and Pakistan ceded land to each other.
 

Mohsin77

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In the article above , the details are given nicely of how the Pakistanis became worried from the 1950s about the Chinese claims.

By "article", do you mean Wikipedia?

Did you notice that the only sentence in which Pakistan's "concern" is mentioned, there is no citation? In fact, the only citation in that entire paragraph is a statement by Nehru in the Indian parliament.

The most relevant sections though, are cited (below) and also, keep the context of these developments in the 50s and 60s in mind, they took place after the events in '47 which were discussed before in this thread:

"By 1959, however, Chinese maps were published showing large areas west and south of the MacDonald line in China. That year, the Government of Pakistan announced its willingness to consult on the boundary question."
The Geographer. Office of the Geographer. Bureau of Intelligence and Research. Department of State, United States of America (November 15, 1968), China – Pakistan Boundary (PDF), International Boundary Study, 85, Florida State University College of Law

"After Pakistan voted to grant China a seat in the United Nations, the Chinese withdrew the disputed maps in January 1962, agreeing to enter border talks in March. Negotiations between the nations officially began on October 13, 1962 and resulted in the Sino-Pakistan Agreement signed on 2 March 1963 by foreign ministers Chen Yi of China and Zulfikar Ali Bhutto of Pakistan."
"Signing with the Red Chinese". Time (magazine). 15 March 1963. Archived from the original on 6 August 2020. Retrieved 28 October 2019.


I can tell you frankly no Indian government can ever act like this and get away.

Are you seriously going there? Dude your governments get rewarded for military failures, as we've been seeing since 2019. Modi actually got re-elected after the whole Balakot fiasco. Any other self-respecting population would've booted that guy out of office for the failed bombing alone, let alone getting a Mig splashed and fragging their own chopper. Then next year, after China walked in and kicked his ass, and again no real dip in popularity. Then Modi completely messed up the Covid response and again, he's still in office.
 
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