J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[mean_bird]

It's just not possible for Pakistan to get the modified version based on the time frame they are talking about. It will take until at least late 2010 for the production on J-10B to start if we go by the flight test timeframe of J-11B and JF-17 04.

Hmm...I haven't exactly been following the J-11B program...could you tell me how long it it took?

As for the JF-17...then that was a first flight. That was the first time development of a "new aircraft". No JF-17 existed before so they had to test the aircraft not just the modifications.

This on the other hand, is an "improvement" over an existing design. Honestly, unless there is a significant change in its aerodynamic behavior...I don't see how a JF-17 style DSI + Tail-housed ECM suite + FLIR would cause any delay beyond end 2009/ start of 2010....or the speculated AESA radar for that matter.

You do not have to build prototypes to go through fatigue testing, weapons integration, etc all over again. Most probably flight testing and engine performance and that too not to an extent of a new plane.

As for fitting European avionics/EW suite, that's exactly the point, China probably wouldn't want Pakistan to do it. Unlike in JF-17's case, Pakistan doesn't have ToT for J-10.

That looks more like your wish/fear than a good enough reason. I talked specifically about radar and ECM...and honestly, you even need a complete ToT to do that.

But for PAF to go for western stuff, one has to assume that China either doesn't have or isn't willing to sell stuff to meet PAF requirement. Then again, there is no proof or even a hint of China denying or downgrading the J-10 they will sell to Pakistan. That is purely your opinion/hesitation.

Let's not go into this until there is some evidence that points to this as all this is pure speculation. But just to put the perspective right, the source you quoted (pakdef) also mentions the M-AESA radar.

 

[Rauf]

Even though its possible but I doubt China will play my way or highway for J-10 deal with PAF, reason being as investment in country ( i.e Gwader port and some other projects, ) keeping in mind its own future needs.

As far as if China will sell as par as PLAAF or sub par equipment is also up for debate as no one really knows the entire deal and its working. As arm chair warriors we can debate all day long as what should and what shouldn't be.

All could be is that PAF is prefectly happy with J-10 as is or as being offered, or China has no objection to if PAF wants to install Euro equipment in it. However the time frame posted for delivery as ( any where between 2 months from now which is doubtable, to end of year possible ) the fighter will more then likely be equiped with some type of Chinese equipment. My assumption is based on 300 odd PL-12 being ordered with it, i.e no western radar currently in market for J-10 can fire PL-12.

 

[adeptitus]

True if China wills, it could probably force the PAF to buy all Chinese material on it. However, apart from the financial aspect (which is very important in any deal regardless of friendship, etc) won't be the only factor. Strategic interest, mutual regard and long-term relationship would also come to play.

I don't think this is such a big issue today. In the past, China's military aviation technology was not up to date and customers like Pakistan and Burma looked to Western & Israeli suppliers for upgrades. Western radar/avionics was a necessity to fulfill their operational requirements. But today the radar and avionics on the J-10 is probably on par with whatever the Italians and Israelis are willing to export.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

All this talk of soft 'forcing' Pakistan to order Chinese weapon's systems ignores the basic fact that Pakistan is no longer embargoed by the US anymore and is awaiting an order for around 18 new Block 52 F-16s. While the current global economic crisis is a factor to seriously consider, the barrier of Western (US) weapons sales to Pakistan is a thing of the past and given the closure of the Manas Airforce base and the renewed focus on Afghanistan, while the US is seen as harmed the legitimacy of the Pakistani government with its air strikes in Northern Pakistan, I highly doubt the US would purposely try to destabalise the region with something drastic directed at Pakistan such as a renewed arms embargo. I think though, that the fact that there still is a very strong anti-US voice in Pakistan (due in part to the air strikes) that China has a rather comfortable 'no-questions asked' platform to deal with Pakistan from.

As for the PL-12 to Pakistan, IIRC the only western radar that is compatible with it is the FIAR Grifo S7 (which lost out to trhe KLJ-7) although its generally believed that the export 'SD-10' is a watered down version of the PLAAFs PL-12.

 

[Londo Molari]

I think if any third-party systems are to be installed on J-10's exported to PAF, there is no risk to China.

The same has been done in the past with J-7s and soon JF-17. In both cases, only Pakistanis had access to the aircraft, the Europeans just sent the hardware.

So if a french radar is installed on J-10, its not like France will be getting a good look at the J-10.

And unless China exports its very best J-10 compatible radar to PAF, I think its highly likely that a foreign radar WILL be installed on Pakistani J-10's. This is obvious to both China and Pakistan even right now. So the fact that the export deal is still on shows that China does not have a problem with it. This entire discussion is a non-issue.

 

[Deino]

:china:

 

[tphuang]

I think if any third-party systems are to be installed on J-10's exported to PAF, there is no risk to China.

The same has been done in the past with J-7s and soon JF-17. In both cases, only Pakistanis had access to the aircraft, the Europeans just sent the hardware.

So if a french radar is installed on J-10, its not like France will be getting a good look at the J-10.

And unless China exports its very best J-10 compatible radar to PAF, I think its highly likely that a foreign radar WILL be installed on Pakistani J-10's. This is obvious to both China and Pakistan even right now. So the fact that the export deal is still on shows that China does not have a problem with it. This entire discussion is a non-issue.

Let me just answer this first. We don't know what China is thinking exactly. For example, J-10 was scheduled to be unveiled in Zhuhai 2006, but it got called off in the last minute by the people high up in PLAAF. Don't think just because some members in PLA is telling you one thing, the PLAAF bosses will agree to the same things. Bottom line is we don't know exactly what China will permit and from their paranoia over people seeing J-10, you pretty much should assume blanket coverage.

Hmm...I haven't exactly been following the J-11B program...could you tell me how long it it took?

As for the JF-17...then that was a first flight. That was the first time development of a "new aircraft". No JF-17 existed before so they had to test the aircraft not just the modifications.

This on the other hand, is an "improvement" over an existing design. Honestly, unless there is a significant change in its aerodynamic behavior...I don't see how a JF-17 style DSI + Tail-housed ECM suite + FLIR would cause any delay beyond end 2009/ start of 2010....or the speculated AESA radar for that matter.

You do not have to build prototypes to go through fatigue testing, weapons integration, etc all over again. Most probably flight testing and engine performance and that too not to an extent of a new plane.

Let's go with the initial flight of December of 2008 as the basis for this, again that's another thing we don't know for sure.
What I read is that they entirely redid the avionics architecture of J-10. That the leap from J-10 to J-10B is greater than that of J-11A to J-11B. As in the J-11B scenario, they will probably build 3 prototype and have them do an entire set of testing in CFTE. In the case of J-11B, I'm thinking that they had first flight in 2004 and didn't start entering service until end of 2007. And we probably still don't have a full regiment of J-11B (but that's more of an indication of SAC's incompetence). If we use a domestic example like J-8F, which is just an upgrade in the existing J-8II series, it had first flight in 2000 and entered PLAAF in 2003. A general pattern is that it takes about 3 years from first flight to entering service for a new variant. Clearly, China does its entire set of flight tests. Now, assuming that CAC is more competent and we use the 1.5 to 2 year flight test of JF-17, that still put the production date to mid 2010 at the earliest. And delivery probably by the end of 2010. Let's put it this way, if PLAAF gets one regiment of J-10B by the end of 2010, I think CAC would've done a miraculous job.

 

[netxiao]

:china: I want to see J-14,J-10 is older fight.

 

[jawad]

Full steam ahead for China's engine designs[/B]

05 March 2009 By Reuben F Johnson and RobertHewson

The design growth chart for engines produced by three of China's main propulsion system centres – Liyang Aero-Engine Corporation (LYAC) in Guizhou, Liming Aero-Engine Manufacturing Corporation (LMAC) in Shenyang and Xi'an Aero-Engine Corporation (XAC) – has been obtained by Jane's.

The chart shows a clear plan for increasing the thrust and performance of China's major military engine designs, as well as confirming the existence of aircraft programmes currently in development.

If the developmental timeline laid out is accurate, Chinese industry is well on its way to weaning itself from its current dependence on Russian industry as a source of engines for its most advanced fighter aircraft. Currently, China depends totally upon Russia for two of its most advanced fighter aircraft that are offered for export.

The indigenously developed Chengdu J-10 fighter is powered by the Salyut AL-31FN: a derivative of the Sukhoi Su-27's Saturn/Lyulka AL-31F. The FC-1/JF-17 fighter is fitted with one Chernyshev RD-93 engine: a variant of the Mikoyan MiG-29's Klimov/Isotov RD-33.

Both aircraft are on track for use by China's major defence export customer, Pakistan. JF-17s are already being assembled at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the J-10 is also planned for acquisition, being designated FC-20 in service.

The long-term Chinese plan is for the LMAC WS-10A Taihang engine to become the basis for several successively more powerful designs.
223 of 1005 words
© 2009 Jane's Information Group

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[mean_bird]

here's an extract from the news posted in the JF-17 thread.

About the delivery of AWACS system to Pakistan, he said that agreement had already been reached with a Chinese firm which would start its delivery by 2010.

On the delivery of first AWACS system Pakistan would pay 10 % cost of the aircraft while the rest would be paid on easy installments basis, he said.

Answering a question, he said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High-Tech aircraft J-10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014-15. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAF’s requirements and delivered under the title of FC-20.

President CATIC MA Zhiping told the media “first aircraft under this agreement would fly in the Pakistani air during this year.”

He said the joint venture between CATIC and PAF will go a long way forward in the aviation history.

Ambassador of China to Pakistan LUO Zhaohui said the JF-17 fighter jet is another milestone achieved in furthering the bilateral relations between the nations of Pakistan and China.

So the J-10 will fly in Pakistan by this year end while for the FC-20 which is referred to as "these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014-15" probably refers to the Super-10 or J10B.