J-10 Thread IV

siegecrossbow

Field Marshall
Staff member
Super Moderator
The J-10 variant given to Indonesia is stil unknown. Many military outlets say J-10C or J-10CE but they fail multiple times to do a basic research on Indonesian Air Force.
They're unreliable. Let's just wait until more information comes in.
I just think J-10B is a pretty bad buy. If they want commonality in engines there are plenty of J-10C with AL-31 as well. Big Red Eagle in South Theater Command are phasing out J-10C in favor of J-20 for instance.
 

henrik

Senior Member
Registered Member
I suspect Indonesia bought J-10B because it uses AL-31 family engine, and crews already are familiar with working on it (Flankers).

Again, enthusiasts are talking about a J-10BD, I suspect it’s a modernised/specialised version for Indonesia.

J-10B and J-10C share similar external parts and dimensions. The difference on sensors and engine. Deino also talked that 50 J-10B basically in reserve condition as China wants J-10C with their own WS-10 engine being operated rather then AL-31 powered J-10B.

So basically those J-10B are in relatively low airframe hours, and China seems willing to let them go on a discount price. For Indonesia it means similar engine with Flankers that TNI-AU engineers are already familiar with. Speculation is that they all going to operate in Kupang, Biak and Makasar. TNI-AU also already signed agreement with India on Flankers for maintenance, and i guess it will include AL-31 engines.

It will be crazy to have Indians having the chance to take a peek at the J-10, while doing maintenance. China should insist on maintenance contracts, when selling any fighter jets. Just like selling a car, the car dealership makes more money on service and maintenance, than on the car itself.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
China has optimized the aircraft for A2A, but it doesn't mean it can be de-optimized to do Air-to-Surface against ground targets or Anti-Shipping, it'll be easy to have a lof of china's best ammunition that beat what france can offer in range, quality and quantity
Compare weapon/pod options and their capabilities, pylon availability/store combinations and range. Rafale handily beats all.

De-optimizing J-10 is in fact quite hard; that could be done, mostly, already was. J-10 is a very "streamlined" aircraft; changing more than was already shown will lead to a new airctaft; just not enough space and heavy duty pylons, and (it's visible from actually used configurations) very significant drag coefficients. Whatever could be done with that, PLAAF is clearly not interested in doing it, and it's doubtful any of J-10 foreign clients have coffers to stand up.

As such, we should treat J-10 as such - powerful a2a platform, which can also fill the other multirole niches if necessary. It isn't a purpose-made strike aircraft. Unlike Rafale, which most certainly is and always was meant to be. And french paid, tested and demonstrated it all before it got a single export order.
And Rafale doesn't offer a long range or time endurance in mission -- it doesn't offer what a flanker offers for instance.
Rafale offers a lot of that - it's perhaps one of key reasons this platform is quite popular. It carries 3 huge subsonic tanks, which don't interfere all that much with weapon loads (only point of conflict is central station, which on J-10 is a cripple due to low ground clearance). It keeps supersonic tanks and empty options as well, of course.
Flanker family lacking drop tanks (and French relying on them heavily since 1950s) is just a doctrine.

J-10 is equally heavily dependent on tanks in anything but PD intercept profiles - which leaves it with just two useful heavy duty stations.
Until Zhuhai-24, both limitations for J-10 were just dead weights - despite higher class, as it is its' strike potential is more akin to a light fighter (Gripen, jf-17). Not even a strike-optimized fighter bomber like JAS-39E, which does just more.
And it remains to be seen if these Zhuhai options will ever come to fruition - as i mentioned above, this doesn't seem to be that PLAAF is interested in, and it's hardly something other J-10 clients will rush to pay for.
When people come for J-10, they come for an affordable high-end fighter/interceptor - aka Pakistani example.
 
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mshrief303

New Member
Registered Member
Compare weapon/pod options and their capabilities, pylon availability/store combinations and range. Rafale handily beats all.

De-optimizing J-10 is in fact quite hard; that could be done, mostly, already was. J-10 is a very "streamlined" aircraft; changing more than was already shown will lead to a new airctaft; just not enough space and heavy duty pylons, and (it's visible from actually used configurations) very significant drag coefficients. Whatever could be done with that, PLAAF is clearly not interested in doing it, and it's doubtful any of J-10 foreign clients have coffers to stand up.

As such, we should treat J-10 as such - powerful a2a platform, which can also fill the other multirole niches if necessary. It isn't a purpose-made strike aircraft. Unlike Rafale, which most certainly is and always was meant to be. And french paid, tested and demonstrated it all before it got a single export order.

Rafale offers a lot of that - it's perhaps one of key reasons this platform is quite popular. It carries 3 huge subsonic tanks, which don't interfere all that much with weapon loads (only point of conflict is central station, which on J-10 is a cripple due to low ground clearance). It keeps supersonic tanks and empty options as well, of course.
Flanker family lacking drop tanks (and French relying on them heavily since 1950s) is just a doctrine.

J-10 is equally heavily dependent on tanks in anything but PD intercept profiles - which leaves it with just two useful heavy duty stations.
Until Zhuhai-24, both limitations for J-10 were just dead weights - despite higher class, as it is its' strike potential is more akin to a light fighter (Gripen, jf-17). Not even a strike-optimized fighter bomber like JAS-39E, which does just more.
And it remains to be seen if these Zhuhai options will ever come to fruition - as i mentioned above, this doesn't seem to be that PLAAF is interested in, and it's hardly something other J-10 clients will rush to pay for.
When people come for J-10, they come for an affordable high-end fighter/interceptor - aka Pakistani example.
Comparing payload only doesn't cut it, even if it's lower payload, china can offer better munition especially in range and quality and offer them in quality without western strings attached to it, especially that EU & France have a big backlog of orders and small industrial capability.

Having an aircraft that can carry 1 or 2 missiles with something like 280 km anti-shipping missile is better than another one that can only carry exocet missiles which have lower range.

And again, Rafale is not a fighter that can take pride in its range, it's a twin-engine fighter that will take more costs in maintenance & support per flight - of course it offer more reliability if one engine is damaged - and saying "it carries 3 huge subsonic, which don't interfere all that much with weapon loads" is not feasible or coherent.

I'll understand this argument if we're talking about flankers not rafale, rafale is a very good fighter but it takes multiple engineering decision to achieve it's creator requirements like engineering the core design to be able to operate from a carrier. And other countries that buys it without having the carrier version are just buying more costs for something that they doesn't need/have. Nevertheless, it's still the best in Europe, especially with the under-investment in Eurofighter program, and the frensh have more autonomy.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Compare weapon/pod options and their capabilities, pylon availability/store combinations and range. Rafale handily beats all.
A lot of Chinese ground attack weapons don't have publicly disclosed specs. But yes the Rafale has 14 hardpoints while the J-10 has 11.
Is that even significant when the Rafale costs over twice as much? Just buy more J-10 aircraft.

The Rafale can carry more in part because its engines have 15% more thrust than J-10. It is that simple. Both have similar empty weight. The Rafale has more wing area than J-10 at similar weight so it might have more composites.

Rafale ... carries 3 huge subsonic tanks, which don't interfere all that much with weapon loads (only point of conflict is central station, which on J-10 is a cripple due to low ground clearance). It keeps supersonic tanks and empty options as well, of course.
Flanker family lacking drop tanks (and French relying on them heavily since 1950s) is just a doctrine.
The Flanker carries fuel internally because that keeps drag down. That simple.
Don't think you can fly at the same max velocity clean as with three external fuel tanks.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
A lot of Chinese ground attack weapons don't have publicly disclosed specs. But yes the Rafale has 14 hardpoints while the J-10 has 11.
Is that even significant when the Rafale costs over twice as much? Just buy more J-10 aircraft.
It's quite significant when one aircraft does the job, another one doesn't. Flying far enough, or with necessary weapons, or with necessary mission pods - all of it matters. It isn't China's problem how other nations do this stuff, as China has J-16s, H-6s, PLARF and support aircraft fleet.
For China, J-10c is for a while really PD interceptor and tactical ASF. Yes, it can bomb/strike reasonably when/if necessary. They aren't developed by PLAAF in this direction anymore.
French airfract is attractive precisely because AdAE(as well as the navy) is forced to do everything single stop, and you can buy the same do-it-all.
Rafale often does very spectacular demonstrations of its range/payload metrics - be it on combat missions to Africa, or in regular FdF exercises simulating strikes on Moscow, or their deployments acrolss French colonial holdingsFrance d'outre-mer across the globe - they're in fact more stretched, than russian fighter aircraft doing east-west transfers and long range patrols.

In Indonesian case, range does in fact matter for a strike aircraft - it's a huge contry, which won't have much tanker support. Gauss Kruger and other projections sometimes hide just how big it is. As such, Rafale with its ability to combine impressive fuel loads with significant payloads (including those further adding stand off) is sort of unique.
SU-30mki/brahmos-xr isn't really on the market, but comes with CAATSA. Su-57e is nice, but it only enters the market, and comes with CAATSA too. J-16 isn't for sale; normal flankers, till this moment, come with very dated stand off options. Eurofighter is just worse than Rafale in almost everything strike, exception being ironically being dumb GNSS truck. As such, the only direct competition is F-15E/JASSM, which costs even more(waaay more in fact), comes with american leash and BDSM collar(with spikes and obligation to bark before command even comes), and they won't sell you JASSM for reasons anyway.

Whatever the case - J-10 is most certainly not an aircraft you buy when you want a long range strike option. And not really an aircraft you buy to bomb anyway - things just don't fit there together. There was a notional "J-10D" prototype which maybe could've solved at least the desperate need for volume inside, but it didn't go anywhere as we know.

The Flanker carries fuel internally because that keeps drag down. That simple.
Don't think you can fly at the same max velocity clean as with three external fuel tanks.
As a net result, flanker reaches same ranges (and in commercially available russian package doesn't carry equal strike weapons - remember that chinese flankers aren't sold) at twice the size, maintenance and per hour cost. Indonesia has them, note that they're effectively replacing strike flankers with those (and cancelled Su-35s deal was for essentially loitering ASFs with at most secondary strike capability).

Yes, it can reach Vmax fully tanked. It doesn't matter for a strike mission. Also, it's completely irrelevant in J-10 topic - J-10 can bomb something beyond the edge of the airfield only with heavy tanks, and with a lot of additional drag (EW pod? Datalink pod?) weighting down on the originally very streamlined platform.
 

defenceman

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hi,
Indonesia might be buying C or B version but the better news to dig out should
be what kind of PL15, as Indonesia is getting Rafale jets & kniw one knows are they
getting Meteor with these and what standard F3 or F4 because Egypt still looking for
Meteor which been disappeared from the original deal at the time of export to Cairo
thank you
 
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