Z-10 thread

[supersnoop]

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Chinese ATGM discussion

What missile is this? It doesn't look like AKD-10 because the body diameter is uniform. Do you have the full image of the helicopter firing it? Blue arrow 7 is equivalent to AKD-10 which uses Semi-Active Laser Homing, Blue Arrow 21, on the other hand, features a round head, which likely...

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Quick question
If the MMW seeker of this missile is active/fire-and-forget, then technically the Z-19 is not really necessary (aside from providing enhanced location of targets), correct?

 

[Hendrik_2000]

We are now overlapping with

Chinese ATGM discussion

What missile is this? It doesn't look like AKD-10 because the body diameter is uniform. Do you have the full image of the helicopter firing it? Blue arrow 7 is equivalent to AKD-10 which uses Semi-Active Laser Homing, Blue Arrow 21, on the other hand, features a round head, which likely...

www.sinodefenceforum.com

Quick question
If the MMW seeker of this missile is active/fire-and-forget, then technically the Z-19 is not really necessary (aside from providing enhanced location of targets), correct?

I am no expert in missile technology. Yes but the addition of Z19 allow it flexibility in targeting i guess. Brimstone can prioritize their own taget and it is fire and forget missile I assume this new missile does the same thing. But selective targeting on brimstone is done by laser guidance So it is dual seeker not sure about this new missile

 

[Hendrik_2000]

a clear picture of the new missile via Dafengcao

Z-10 loads new air-to-surface missiles with an unknown pod carrying underneath.

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[Blitzo]

Few pages back we have heated discussion of so-called "world class missile" and some people are not happy with the terminology Well world class mean =NLOS + MMW guidance + Long striking distance. I would love to see it hit a moving target like brimstone but at least it shows the NLOS capability
Start missile release from the Z10
View attachment 62356
At min 0:37 the missile climbing
View attachment 62355

Here we can see clearly NLOS min 0:40 descending and on top of the target

View attachment 62353

At min 0:41 it hit the target

View attachment 62354

I'm not entirely sure if the new missile from the developer's statement was in relation to this missile.

By the sounds of it, that missile they were talking about should have still been in development.


This missile in the video, while it is definitely new in service, should have completed development quite a while ago.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

I'm not entirely sure if the new missile from the developer's statement was in relation to this missile.

By the sounds of it, that missile they were talking about should have still been in development.


This missile in the video, while it is definitely new in service, should have completed development quite a while ago.

AKD 10 is laser guided so it is not NLOS I don't know any Chinese missile that is fire and forget except HJ 12. But HJ12 is small missile intended for infantry
AFT 10 is wire guided fibre optic. but using wire in helicopter is risky

 

[Blitzo]

AKD 10 is laser guided so it is not NLOS I don't know any Chinese missile that is fire and forget except HJ 12. But HJ12 is small missile intended for infantry
AFT 10 is wire guided fibre optic. but using wire in helicopter is risky

Regarding AKD-10's laser guidance -- being laser guided doesn't mean a munition is not NLOS. The PLA have conducted exercises where Z-10s have launched laser guided AKD-10s against targets guided by troops on the ground with laser designators.



For the record, this new missile in the video (which IMO is probably best described as a MMW variant of AKD-10) is definitely a significant increase in capability.


However, I doubt if this MMW AKD-10 is the one described by the developer that was recently tested. That one should not be in service yet, and should be in advanced stages of development instead.
Putting it another way, I believe the new missile should be even more capable than what was shown with this MMW AKD-10.

 

[by78]

Ground crew doing maintenance.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Regarding AKD-10's laser guidance -- being laser guided doesn't mean a munition is not NLOS. The PLA have conducted exercises where Z-10s have launched laser guided AKD-10s against targets guided by troops on the ground with laser designators.



For the record, this new missile in the video (which IMO is probably best described as a MMW variant of AKD-10) is definitely a significant increase in capability.


However, I doubt if this MMW AKD-10 is the one described by the developer that was recently tested. That one should not be in service yet, and should be in advanced stages of development instead.
Putting it another way, I believe the new missile should be even more capable than what was shown with this MMW AKD-10.

I doubt if it standard AKD 10, laser targeting is good for a static target where you can get good fixed on the target like bridges, fortification But against fast moving armor column it start to get risky anything within 3 to 5 km radius. I mean helicopter is supposed to be standoff weapon disgorging the missile while keeping it safe distance.
Now can you get a good fixed on your small tank target at 8 to 10 km using ground-based laser designator?
That is why the ground launched version AFT 10 use fiber optic for track, make adjustment and guide the missile to target

Plus I am not sure if laser beam riding missile can do loft trajectory as the video clearly shown unless it is dual seeker IN

I agree it could be MMW riding AKD 10 but no know literature said it is so. I know there are talk of equipping it with MMW seeker

 

[supersnoop]

I doubt if it standard AKD 10, laser targeting is good for a static target where you can get good fixed on the target like bridges, fortification But against fast moving armor column it start to get risky anything within 3 to 5 km radius. I mean helicopter is supposed to be standoff weapon disgorging the missile while keeping it safe distance.
Now can you get a good fixed on your small tank target at 8 to 10 km using ground-based laser designator?
That is why the ground launched version AFT 10 use fiber optic for track, make adjustment and guide the missile to target

Plus I am not sure if laser beam riding missile can do loft trajectory as the video clearly shown unless it is dual seeker IN

I agree it could be MMW riding AKD 10 but no know literature said it is so. I know there are talk of equipping it with MMW seeker

I believe lofted trajectory is just a function of the flight profile and nothing inherent to the seeker.

However, I don’t think it can be IR seeker at all since there is no “window”.

That leaves semi-active guidance from WZ-19 or active seeker.

I would think more the latter because Z-10 doesn’t have a radar for itself, and it doesn’t make sense to develop a missile that would require two helicopters to launch.

 

[Blitzo]

I doubt if it standard AKD 10, laser targeting is good for a static target where you can get good fixed on the target like bridges, fortification But against fast moving armor column it start to get risky anything within 3 to 5 km radius. I mean helicopter is supposed to be standoff weapon disgorging the missile while keeping it safe distance.
Now can you get a good fixed on your small tank target at 8 to 10 km using ground-based laser designator?
That is why the ground launched version AFT 10 use fiber optic for track, make adjustment and guide the missile to target

Plus I am not sure if laser beam riding missile can do loft trajectory as the video clearly shown unless it is dual seeker IN

I agree it could be MMW riding AKD 10 but no know literature said it is so. I know there are talk of equipping it with MMW seeker

Laser targeting is absolutely good for hitting moving targets. Early Hellfire variants and the baseline AKD-9/10 are fine for hitting moving targets. Laser guided bombs like Paveway family are routinely used for hitting moving targets as well. Even laser guided artillery shells can hit moving targets.

The benefit of MMW is that it allows you to fire them in fire and forget mode if you have the requisite guidance systems, and also to simultaneously attack more targets than you can with laser guidance.

MMW guidance is capable yes, but it is not "world leading" advanced. Hellfire longbow and Brimstone I have been in service for over a decade now, they are very mature products with successors already either in service or being developed.


The new missile discussed by the developers was "world leading" advanced and Yankee mentioned it would likely have some type of dual mode guidance instead (such as MMW+ImIR) which is where the most capable missiles are heading towards.
So no, I don't think the BA-21/AKD-10 MMW seen in the video is reflective of the "new missile". Because I expect the "new missile" to be more advanced.
And as aforementioned, the new missile should be in advanced stages of development, rather than be in service like what the video depicted.