Z-10 thread


Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
Laser targeting is absolutely good for hitting moving targets. Early Hellfire variants and the baseline AKD-9/10 are fine for hitting moving targets. Laser guided bombs like Paveway family are routinely used for hitting moving targets as well. Even laser guided artillery shells can hit moving targets.

The benefit of MMW is that it allows you to fire them in fire and forget mode if you have the requisite guidance systems, and also to simultaneously attack more targets than you can with laser guidance.

MMW guidance is capable yes, but it is not "world leading" advanced. Hellfire longbow and Brimstone I have been in service for over a decade now, they are very mature products with successors already either in service or being developed.


The new missile discussed by the developers was "world leading" advanced and Yankee mentioned it would likely have some type of dual mode guidance instead (such as MMW+ImIR) which is where the most capable missiles are heading towards.
So no, I don't think the BA-21/AKD-10 MMW seen in the video is reflective of the "new missile". Because I expect the "new missile" to be more advanced.
And as aforementioned, the new missile should be in advanced stages of development, rather than be in service like what the video depicted.
Read carefully what I posted in order for the helicopter to hit moving target with laser designator it has to keep fixed on the target meaning they are vulnerable to counter attack the same with ground based laser spotter Anyone brave enough to target a moving tank in open space with laser designator is asking for trouble!

Paveway can do that because the distance of airplane to target is relatively large the angle to fix the moving target is small. Actually, laser seeker is not the best radar guided is now in vogue

Does not look like it is imir seeker if the photos on the missile is correct no glass cover
1596843547548.png
The laser-guided Hellfire system is highly effective, but it has some significant drawbacks:
  • Cloud cover or obstacles can block the laser beam so it never makes it to the target.
  • If the missile passes through a cloud, it can lose sight of the target.
  • The helicopter (or a ground targeting crew) has to keep the laser fixed on the target until the missile makes contact. This means the helicopter has to be out in the open, vulnerable to attack.
The Hellfire II, used in Apache Longbow helicopters, corrects these flaws. Instead of a laser-seeking system, the missile has a
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seeker. The helicopter's radar locates the target, and the missiles zero in on it. Since radio waves aren't obscured by clouds or obstacles, the missile is more likely to find its target. Since it doesn't have to keep the laser focused on the target, the helicopter can fire the missile and immediately find cover.
 
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Bltizo

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Read carefully what I posted in order for the helicopter to hit moving target with laser designator it has to keep fixed on the target meaning they are vulnerable to counter attack the same with ground based laser spotter Anyone brave enough to target a moving tank in open space with laser designator is asking for trouble!

Paveway can do that because the distance of airplane to target is relatively large the angle to fix the moving target is small. Actually, laser seeker is not the best radar guided is now in vogue

Does not look like it is imir seeker if the photos on the missile is correct no glass cover

The laser-guided Hellfire system is highly effective, but it has some significant drawbacks:
  • Cloud cover or obstacles can block the laser beam so it never makes it to the target.
  • If the missile passes through a cloud, it can lose sight of the target.
  • The helicopter (or a ground targeting crew) has to keep the laser fixed on the target until the missile makes contact. This means the helicopter has to be out in the open, vulnerable to attack.
The Hellfire II, used in Apache Longbow helicopters, corrects these flaws. Instead of a laser-seeking system, the missile has a
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seeker. The helicopter's radar locates the target, and the missiles zero in on it. Since radio waves aren't obscured by clouds or obstacles, the missile is more likely to find its target. Since it doesn't have to keep the laser focused on the target, the helicopter can fire the missile and immediately find cover.
None of that goes against what I've said.

An MMW guided ATGM is obviously much more capable than laser guided.
I literally mentioned on the last page that MMW guided ATGMs are fire and forget.


My point is that the "new missile" talked about here (Chinese ATGM discussion) probably shouldn't be the MMW guided ATGM seen in the video, because the "new missile" should be even more advanced/even more capable than this MMW guided ATGM.


I'm just pointing out that this new MMW guided ATGM/MMW AKD-10/BA-21 missile in the video probably isn't the "new missile," because in this post here (Z-10 thread) you made it sound like you believed the "new missile" was the one shown in the video.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
But if the photo is correct it doesn't look anything like AKD 10 unless they modify the missile. And why should they show the image of the new missile and not the firing sequence? The missile image could be part of the video that is not shown
Here is how ADK 10 look like stubby and has cone front with clear glass cover at the seeker. the new missile looks slenderer and longer with opaque cover befitting a radar seeker and longer range.
Anyway, I will end this discussion not need to drag it any further. Let the time tell
1596846163547.png
 

Bltizo

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But if the photo is correct it doesn't look anything like AKD 10 unless they modify the missile. And why should they show the image of the new missile and not the firing sequence? The missile image could be part of the video that is not shown
Here is how ADK 10 look like stubby and has cone front with clear glass cover at the seeker. the new missile looks slenderer and longer with opaque cover befitting a radar seeker and longer range.
Anyway, I will end this discussion not need to drag it any further. Let the time tell
View attachment 62393

None of what you wrote counters what I said??

The baseline AKD-9/10 uses laser guidance-- that is why its front section is slender and it has the "glass" nose,because that's where the laser seeker is.

The new missile -- regardless of whether it's a derivative of AKD-10 or a new design or not -- should be MMW guided, and it's normal for its nose cone to be larger and have an opaque radome.
If you look at variants of Hellfire, you will also see minor differences in nosecone size and seeker between different variants (e.g.: laser guided hellfire vs MMW guided hellfire)



But the underlying point is that the new missile in the video likely isn't the "new world class missile" discussed by the developers that Yankee wrote an article, on, because:
1. The "new missile" which is "world class" should be more advanced than the missile we see in the video. Specifically, it should likely have a different seeker, like a dual mode seeker rather than only a MMW seeker.
2. The "new missile" which is "world class" should still be in development rather than be in service and having it shown in a CCTV video in service like what we see with the missile in the video.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
Here is the complete video check it up yourself This is clearly a new missile that we haven't seen before and as I guess the image is part of the same video release and it is recent 08/04 The Z19 image clearly show it is pair off with this new missile
It is no coincidence that the news release is accompanied by the video of the firing
The form clearly show it is a long-distance missile what else do you want? Long distance, fire- forget mode, cooperative engagement, all weather missile day and night, can strike moving target that is the mark of world class missile
Here is ozranger comment on the capability of the missile.

Seems like the Z-19's radar detected the target, passed on the target message to Z-10 by data-link and Z-10's computer programmed a cruise path to the missile.

Then the missile was fired and flied along the path until its millimetre band seeker locked onto the target.
I don't know any other helicopter launched PLA missile that can do that not even spike can do that
It's quite likely a long-range missile.

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Notice how long this missile is There is no way it is modified AKD 10
1596908581878.png

The same missile in the video close up
1596908678207.png

1596908949961.png
 
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Bltizo

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Here is the complete video check it up yourself This is clearly a new missile that we haven't seen before and as I guess the image is part of the same video release and it is recent 08/04 The Z19 image clearly show it is pair off with this new missile
It is no coincidence that the news release is accompanied by the video of the firing
The form clearly show it is a long-distance missile what else do you want? Long distance, fire- forget mode, cooperative engagement, all weather missile day and night, can strike moving target that is the mark of world class missile
Here is ozranger comment on the capability of the missile.

Seems like the Z-19's radar detected the target, passed on the target message to Z-10 by data-link and Z-10's computer programmed a cruise path to the missile.

Then the missile was fired and flied along the path until its millimetre band seeker locked onto the target.
I don't know any other helicopter launched PLA missile that can do that not even spike can do that
It's quite likely a long-range missile.

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Notice how long this missile is There is no way it is modified AKD 10
View attachment 62404

The same missile in the video close up
View attachment 62405

View attachment 62406

Yes, it's a new missile, and I've stated that over the last few posts. It's either a new variant of AKD-10 or it's a new design altogether (a domestic variant of BA-21).


However, what I'm saying it likely isn't the new "world class" missile that is in development which was discussed in this thread here (Chinese ATGM discussion).
Because the new "world class" missile should have more capable guidance than what we see in the video (dual mode rather than MMW only) and also should still be in development and in testing, whereas the missile in the video is operating with aircraft in service.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
Yes, it's a new missile, and I've stated that over the last few posts. It's either a new variant of AKD-10 or it's a new design altogether (a domestic variant of BA-21).


However, what I'm saying it likely isn't the new "world class" missile that is in development which was discussed in this thread here (Chinese ATGM discussion).
Because the new "world class" missile should have more capable guidance than what we see in the video (dual mode rather than MMW only) and also should still be in development and in testing, whereas the missile in the video is operating with aircraft in service.
That is your take how do you know the missile in video is in operation ?. Another thing look again at the fire sequence It has loft trajectory. Anyone who take Mechanic 101 class know that in order to increase the striking distance you have to fire the projectile in parabolic trajectory because it give the best distance. So that is why they use the Z19 to paint the target and use data link to give the target coordinate back to Z10.When close to target the missile mmw seeker take over why the need for Im Ir? It is not like air to air missile where the seeker is IR and they are susceptible to defensive flare adding ImIr will defeat the flare

Spike II ER is trying to do the same not sure if they do it now. Why is there a need for dual seeker IM Ir to be world class? Because socalled big shrimp said so? ridiculous This missile probably has 20km range Please let me know your reason

Spike-ER II
In August 2018, Rafael disclosed the development of an enhancement of the missile called the Spike-ER II. It retains the same weight, airframe, surface geometries, and propulsion unit but introduces a two-way RF data-link to increase real-time control to an extended range of 16 km (9.9 mi) from helicopters; it also has an extended fiber optic link to increase range to 10 km (6.2 mi) from land and naval platforms.
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Bltizo

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@huitong call this new ATGM - IMO a KD-10 development - now KD-X

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Might be useful to ask him directly.

Yo, @huitong
Do you think the missile in the video (the MMW weapon that resembles BA-21 you dub KD-X) is the same "world class" missile mentioned here:
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??

The reason I am skeptical is because the tone of the news suggests the "world class" missile should still be in development, and we wouldn't see this missile shown on CCTV if it were still in development.
Also, the impression of yankee suggests he believes the new missile should have more advanced guidance (such as dual mode MWW and ImIR) rather than only MMW guidance. The missile in the video appears like it can only have MMW guidance.
 

huitong

Junior Member
Registered Member
Might be useful to ask him directly.

Yo, @huitong
Do you think the missile in the video (the MMW weapon that resembles BA-21 you dub KD-X) is the same "world class" missile mentioned here:
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??

The reason I am skeptical is because the tone of the news suggests the "world class" missile should still be in development, and we wouldn't see this missile shown on CCTV if it were still in development.
Also, the impression of yankee suggests he believes the new missile should have more advanced guidance (such as dual mode MWW and ImIR) rather than only MMW guidance. The missile in the video appears like it can only have MMW guidance.
Yes I kind of agree with you that the "world class" ATGM mentioned in the recent news is still under development. The KD-X already in service with PLA Army Aviation is likely a different type and has evolved from earlier BA-21.
 

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