Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Temstar · Dec 7, 2021

If you're wondering: why don't ROC just buy M1128 from the US, they are all getting retired next year, it's because:

ROC have their own small MIC with all the self-interest and pork barrelling, Cloud Leopard platform is something they are all in on
M1128 is getting retired for a good reason: their autoloader have terrible reliability

sheogorath · Dec 7, 2021

Gloire_bb said:
Does such bsht even need to be challenged?

Oh, you'd be surprised.

KampfAlwin · Dec 7, 2021

sheogorath said:
Because the way anglo narrative goes, you'd think Taiwan is a military R&D powerhouse while China can only produce knock-offs or something

Which is ironic, because a lot of ROC made weapons can be seen as knock-offs.

zxy_bc · Dec 7, 2021

NK military R&D is very sophisticated and targeted. The fact that they have a series of reliable and advanced Ballistic Missile Program makes their R&D far superior than the likes of Vietnam, Taiwan or even Iran. Their small arms industry is also uniquely grounded. The fact that they could produce most of the military hardwares and parts indigenously is a incredible feat. (Plus them exporting these weapons to Africa and Middle East countries has generated considerable revenues as well)

Bellum_Romanum · Dec 7, 2021

Temstar said:
If you're wondering: why don't ROC just buy M1128 from the US, they are all getting retired next year, it's because:

ROC have their own small MIC with all the self-interest and pork barrelling, Cloud Leopard platform is something they are all in on

M1128 is getting retired for a good reason: their autoloader have terrible reliability

What's the PLA equivalent to the M1128 Stryker MGS

plawolf · Dec 7, 2021

Temstar said:
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This bit of interesting news appeared on my radar. ROC tried to purchase two M68A2 105mm tank gun, basically the same gun used on M1128 Stryker Mobile Gun System to develop their own wheeled assault gun platform based on CM-32 Cloud Leopard. Watervliet Arsenal asked them what the guns where for and they told them the truth. The deal then broke down because the Americans insisted ROC to pay license fee up front since their intention was to produce domestic copies and ROC didn't want to pay.

Worth nothing before the abortive M68A2 gun deal ROC originally intended to develop a domestic 105mm tank gun for this role, based on their previous experiencing on making domestic copies of the M68 105mm gun that armed CM-11 Brave Tiger. The requirement for the new 105mm gun was it had to be able to penetrate 500mm of RHA. This domestic project failed for whatever reason hence the switch to attempt to purchase from the US.

With the deal having fallen through ROC is switching back to attempting a domestic 105mm program again for the Cloud Leopard. The project have spent so far 118,970,000 NT$.

I find the bolded part amusing and probably the true cause of the deal falling apart.

The Americans wanted all the license fees upfront instead of as they were produced like normal because the Americans are not expecting Taiwan to be around long enough to pay them up to the intended full production run of the gun.

Temstar · Dec 7, 2021

Bellum_Romanum said:
What's the PLA equivalent to the M1128 Stryker MGS

That would be Type 11 Assault Gun. Putting 105mm rifled gun on a 8x8 chassis is a pretty common idea throughout the world now, it's very useful when operating in areas with good road network such as Taiwan. Donald Rumsfeld is onto a good idea with the Stryker brigade combat team. It's just the M1128 itself is a bit dodgy.

Compared to the M1128:

M1128 uses a much smaller turret and three man crew with autoloader, Type 11 uses a light tank turret with four crew and a manual loader.

The proposed assault gun version of Cloud Leopard would probably use a human loader, it has a giant of a turret:

Bellum_Romanum · Dec 7, 2021

Temstar said:
View attachment 79743
That would be Type 11 Assault Gun. Putting 105mm rifled gun on a 8x8 chassis is a pretty common idea throughout the world now, it's very useful when operating in areas with good road network such as Taiwan. Donald Rumsfeld is onto a good idea with the Stryker brigade combat team. It's just the M1128 itself is a bit dodgy.

Compared to the M1128:
View attachment 79744
M1128 uses a much smaller turret and three man crew with autoloader, Type 11 uses a light tank turret with four crew and a manual loader.

The proposed assault gun version of Cloud Leopard would probably use a human loader, it has a giant of a turret:
View attachment 79745

Thanks for the reply and education on the differences between these two mobile assault armored vehicles. But @Temstar without being bias towards the Chinese/PLA equivalent what are the advantages and disadvantages the Type 11 over the M1128 MGS, and is the PLA Type 11 really that much better and considering that M1128 is already being phased out even only serving for 15 years is the PLA satisfied or at least looking into replacing or modifying the existing Type 11 to meet the coming changes or challenges going to be posed by the American change or is the PLA in your opinion will stick with the Type 11 since these two countries have some divergent views and doctrinal use for their respective vehicles.

Temstar · Dec 7, 2021

Bellum_Romanum said:
Thanks for the reply and education on the differences between these two mobile assault armored vehicles. But @Temstar without being bias towards the Chinese/PLA equivalent what are the advantages and disadvantages the Type 11 over the M1128 MGS, and is the PLA Type 11 really that much better and considering that M1128 is already being phased out even only serving for 15 years is the PLA satisfied or at least looking into replacing or modifying the existing Type 11 to meet the coming changes or challenges going to be posed by the American change or is the PLA in your opinion will stick with the Type 11 since these two countries have some divergent views and doctrinal use for their respective vehicles.

PLA is working on a replacement for Type 08 wheeled IFV so presumably eventually we will see a Type 11 replacement based on the new chassis, but the idea of wheeled assault gun definitely has merit, it's just that M1128 and its crappy autoloader is a bad implementation of the idea. If you look at some of the other vehicles around the world in the same role:

French AMX-10 RC:

Italian B1 Centauro

Along with the Type 11 and Clouded Leopard assault gun, see a pattern? All of them use a roomy light tank turret with 4 man crew including a human loader. M1128 is actually the odd man out with a small turret, autoloader and 3 man crew.

Well not quite, there's also this guy: