Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Kaine

Junior Member
Registered Member
We're talking about defending a country's territorial integrity and sovereignty. We're also talking about a very large and powerful country defending its core national interest. You should never underestimate any country's will to defend its core interest, but you should particularly never underestimate China's or Chinese people's.
You made too many assumptions from my post. Did you see anywhere in my post where I said anything about China's will to defend its territory?

I think you misread my post. I was merely correcting another member who equalised the life of the young to the life of the old.

E.g. 600k dead young people is much more impactful than 600k dead old people.

Thats all I said.
It was you who jumped off the gun and started making assumptions on what I mean on my post. Plus you are borderline making personal attacks now based on misunderstanding what I wrote

While I don't want to accuse you with malice intent, your current one is borderline insulting.
Let me repeat it again. My point was that the life of the young has more value to the society than the life of the old.

I didnt say anything about China's will to defend its territory or of its will to absorb such kinds of costs

Reread my post please and lets stop this offtopic convo
 

weig2000

Captain
Let me repeat it again. My point was that the life of the young has more value to the society than the life of the old.

That's a true statement in isolation, but ultimately meaningless in the current context. And you're responding to a post under the current thread. From there, it's very easy to infer what you imply, unless, of course, you're a troll or bot posting semi-randomly to instigate fight. I'm not making the latter assumption by responding to your post.
 

Kaine

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's a true statement in isolation, but ultimately meaningless in the current context. And you're responding to a post under the current thread. From there, it's very easy to infer what you imply, unless, of course, you're a troll or bot posting semi-randomly to instigate fight. I'm not making the latter assumption by responding to your post.
Instead of just simply saying a simple "sorry, my mistake" you keep digging in and accuse me a second time because you didnt properly read my post.

Is that how things work?

So basically:
You read a post, misunderstand it, personal attack the poster, and when found out you made a mistake, you accuse me a second time at it is my fault you misunderstood.

How about instead of doing all this stuff, just making a post to confirm what you thought I was saying and then respond with that first post of yours?

Keep digging in and accusing the other party for making a mistake yourself. I am actually more dismayed by this response than the original post personally attacking me lol

I am out, not even worth it to have a further convo with you on this if you cant even apologise for making a personal attack based on you misunderstanding my post. Plus offtopic..
 
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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
To be fair, projecting the past onto the future may require caution.
In the 1950s fertility rate was different.

I don't want to sound cynical (all lives are equal), but for the current generation of families in China, potential loss of that single child represents a complete disaster and crush of all hopes.
Even if China(unlike, say South Korea,Japan or... Taiwan itself, yeah) isn't likely to meet with a deficit of recruits anytime soon, willingness to lose them may very well be just as low.
Are you Chinese? Or are at least moderately aware of China's history of warfare, famines, deaths. There has never been any historical analogy that would indicate that today's China maybe reluctant to sacrifice lives in order to defend what it's people deemed an integral part of it's heritage and territory. So long as China is lead with competent, brave leaders the country will slog it out come what may.

You ought to examine your own country's young history (if you're an American) and compare that with China and come back with that mistaken assumption. China isn't taking a piece of land that's not ours to begin with; we are retaking something that belonged to China (Taiwan) that was lost through conquest and imperialism. Therefore the Chinese people's collective will and righteousness are on our side. If on the other hand, we were attacking a country or territory for the sake of naked expansionism then Chinese enthusiasm to sacrifice for idiotic and quixotic American style invasion would result into an enormous pushback from the general public and where the casualty averse you assumed may play a bigger, important and critical role.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
We've seen this impact pretty well during Chechnya, on one of the societies traditionally viewed as resilient, and where the state didn't try birth control policies.
It's one hell of an impact.

Estimating impact in China is aggravated by the fact that we have no reference points: PRC hasn't fought for more than 4 decades.


And? Try fighting a war with 400000 deaths in America, you'll get a very different result.
The U.S. doesn't have any reference point that you can cite in it's entire history for you to justify and push your nonsensical assumption that U.S. will go buck wild and crazy once it's casualty turns into hundreds of thousands. Please do tell why did the U.S. failed in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, almost lost Kosovo (the commanding General lost his job after the conclusion of the air campaign because the general pushed for boots on the ground) and finally Afghanistan were America never had enough troops to pacify the whole darn place. Mostly because America is allergic to casualties which is why the American military pushed for technological dominance over it's opponents to exact a disproportionate amount of casualties. Everything America does when it sends troops overseas gets very difficult since it's military insist on "force protection" so that 10,000 troops becomes 60,000 due to supply and logistics to ensure the absolute minimal casualty inflicted on their troops which means the general officers and their political masters would remain in their respective power.

Unless you can point to me any academic studies that have made Chinese mentality squeamish in their zeal to defend and recapture Taiwan then please am all ears. Until then am basing my analysis, opinion on the history of China, the current attitudes of the Chinese people towards the PLA; and above all the Chinese people's desire to reunify the island of Taiwan back into the mainland.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Interesting article about China's new Ferry Roro ramp system that can discharge armor vehicle while sailing. So DOD might err on the potential of China sea lift based solely on amphibious Landing craft. It is long article click the link for the rest. this is a stealth way to prepare for Taiwan invasion without alerting the foe


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Ramping the Strait: Quick and Dirty Solutions to Boost Amphibious Lift​

Publication: China Brief Volume: 21 Issue: 14​

By:
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July 16, 2021 03:52 PM Age: 1 week


RO-RO ferry Bang Chui Dao (Source: COSCO Shipping Ferry).
Introduction
The threat of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) using military force to coerce or perhaps launch an amphibious invasion of Taiwan has received significant attention in the past year. Meanwhile, the recent commissioning of the PLA Navy’s first Type-075 amphibious assault ship has further highlighted China’s developing amphibious capabilities (
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, May 9). At the same time, the apparent shortage of amphibious lift required to execute large-scale landing operations leaves many wondering whether China is serious about its threats against Taiwan. The U.S. Department of Defense’s 2020 China Military Power Report notes the PLA’s focus on ocean-going amphibious platforms rather than a large fleet of traditional landing ships and craft suggests that a direct beach-assault operation is less likely at the moment (
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, September 1, 2020).

But the PLA may have other plans for transporting troops and equipment across the Strait: the growing capabilities of its merchant roll on-roll off (RO-RO) ships (
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, December 6, 2019). These are vessels equipped with built-in ramps that enable wheeled and tracked cargo to load and offload under their own power. Such ships have the potential to deliver a significant volume of force, providing access to port terminals or other lighterage is available. They do not, however, provide solutions for launching waves of amphibious assault forces, for which dedicated landing ships are still lacking. Among the numerous critical components necessary for a successful cross-Strait landing, a failure to secure landing areas for follow-on forces in the initial assault would bring the entire endeavor to a screeching halt, likely inflicting severe costs on the part of the aggressor and resulting in a withdrawal.

For China’s RO-RO ships to support an amphibious assault scenario, their ramps would need to be capable of in-water operations to launch amphibious combat vehicles. This capability appears to have been publicly demonstrated in the summer of 2020 by the PRC-flagged vessel Bang Chui Dao (棒棰岛), a 15,560-ton RO-RO owned and operated by COSCO Shipping Ferry Company (
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, accessed June 24). This article describes a new ramp system observed on this ship during a recent exercise and discusses its implications for PLA amphibious capabilities in a cross-Strait landing.

New Ramp System Demonstrated in Amphibious Landing Exercises

During the peak of summer training in 2020, the 1st Marine Brigade of the PLA Navy Marine Corps (PLANMC) mustered all personnel and equipment (全员, 全装, quan yuan, quan zhuang) for day and night landing exercises in amphibious training areas off the coast of Guangdong Province. These exercises featured night-time mobilization and assembly, embarkation, obstacle clearance, amphibious assault landings, and artillery and air defense training (
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, August 2, 2020). They also included the use of a new ship to carry these forces to their training area.

On July 10, the Bang Chui Dao, which usually runs ferry routes across the Yellow Sea and Bohai Gulf, arrived in Zhanjiang (湛江) to join the PLANMC exercise. It took on 1st Brigade troops, trucks, and Type-05 amphibious armored vehicles at the Southern Theater Navy’s 6th Landing Ship Flotilla loading dock (
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, August 3, 2020). According to automatic identification system (AIS) transmission data of the vessel’s movements, the ship departed Zhanjiang just before 10:00 AM local time and arrived off Tangxia (塘霞), an amphibious training area in Dianbai County (电白区), at almost 4:00 PM. AIS data indicates that it likely began launching vehicles 4 to 5 kilometers (2.5 to 3.1 miles) offshore without dropping anchor.

Video of a vehicle launching shows the ship was likely running slow into the wind to maintain a lee astern; it appears to have maintained bare steerage while drifting to the southeast at half a knot until offloading was completed and then departed for nearby Shuidong Harbor at around 4:48 PM.[1] After being moored dockside overnight and well into the next day, the ship then left for the Shuidong anchorage on the evening of July 11. It returned to Zhanjiang in the afternoon of July 12, presumably to offload PLANMC forces. Although it is unclear how many PLAN landing ships took part, at least one Type-073A landing ship likely participated (
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, August 3, 2020).

The ship’s participation is not abnormal. It has supported PLA transportation exercises for years, for example in 2014 (shown below). According to its AIS transmissions, the Bang Chui Dao was very busy in the summer of 2020. It made multiple trips beyond the Bohai/Yellow Sea to areas with PLA landing ships and craft, including a visit to a PLA Ground Forces (PLAGF) watercraft site in Xiamen, Fujian Province which is close to a PLAGF amphibious brigade in Zhangzhou (漳州), and possibly conducted activities in waters near Kinmen (金门, Jinmen) Island.[2] Little information is available on what it did there. Bang Chui Dao also played a significant role in “Eastern Transportation-Projection 2020A” (东部运投-2020A), an exercise held by the PLA Joint Logistics Support Force in the Eastern Theater Command between June and August 2020.

The ship’s participation is not abnormal. It has supported PLA transportation exercises for years, for example in 2014 (shown below). According to its AIS transmissions, the Bang Chui Dao was very busy in the summer of 2020. It made multiple trips beyond the Bohai/Yellow Sea to areas with PLA landing ships and craft, including a visit to a PLA Ground Forces (PLAGF) watercraft site in Xiamen, Fujian Province which is close to a PLAGF amphibious brigade in Zhangzhou (漳州), and possibly conducted activities in waters near Kinmen (金门, Jinmen) Island.[2] Little information is available on what it did there. Bang Chui Dao also played a significant role in “Eastern Transportation-Projection 2020A” (东部运投-2020A), an exercise held by the PLA Joint Logistics Support Force in the Eastern Theater Command between June and August 2020.

1627133727502.png

The key technical development demonstrated in its July 2020 exercise with the PLANMC is the converted stern ramp installed on the Bang Chui Dao. The ship’s previous straight stern ramp (shown above) was a hydraulic-powered ramp type often seen on RO-ROs. At some point in the past few years, this vessel’s stern ramp was converted to enable amphibious launch. Video of this capability appeared during a 2019 state media profile of an officer at the former Nanjing Military Region Military Representative Office for Navigational Matters, showing the vessel’s ability to recover a ZTD-05 amphibious assault vehicle, likely from a PLAGF amphibious unit (
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, May 14, 2019).

1627133828150.png

The 2020 exercise provides a closer look at the new ramp system. The ramp is driven directly by two large hydraulic cylinders and two support arms. When conducting launch and recovery, these are connected between the top of the hydraulic mounting assemblies on the inner ramp and the top of the freight deck threshold to provide the strength and leverage required to deploy the ramp into the water and withstand sea action. The support arms also act as preventers at maximum extension, while the ramp is kept rigid by the hydraulic cylinders. A longer outer ramp flap has also been added, controlled by another set of hydraulic cylinders mounted on the underside or backside of the ramp. These help to provide strength at the end of the outer ramp and may also allow for further articulation to help vehicles get on the inner ramp. Based on 2020 video footage, the ramp system appears able to launch and recover at a minimum the lightweight ZTD-05 vehicle (26 tons).[3]

1627133954807.png

A surge in PLA landing ship construction would be expected before serious preparations for a cross-Strait invasion. This would be exposed to ship spotters and overhead imagery over the course of many months and has not yet been observed. Nevertheless, the testing of new ramp systems as seen on the Bang Chui Dao could offer the PLA a potentially fast and cheap method of surging amphibious lift capabilities without raising concerns. e cloud cover.
 

tupolevtu144

Junior Member
Registered Member
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Taiwan’s First Indigenous Submarine To Be Launched Ahead Of Schedule

July 21,2021, Taiwanese media Liberty Times Net (LTN) reported that the first prototype of Taiwan’s Indigenous Defense Submarine (IDS) is expected to be launched in September 2023.


Taiwan’s first indigenous submarine is now set to be launched in September 2023.

It was reported that Taiwanese top national security officials were looking at speeding up the construction schedule of the IDS, and would like to have the submarine launched in first half of 2024, being delivered to ROC Navy in 2025, because of the massive change in Taiwan-China relations.

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saying that the related institutions have made full inquiries to finish the construction as early as possible all while keeping high construction quality standards, in order to launch the submarine in September 2023 as top national security officials planned.

It was reported in March 2021 that the IDS project progresses following U.S. greenlight for key equipment (known as the “red zone” technologies) supply, such as combat system integration, digital sonar systems, optronic masts (periscopes), torpedoes, torpedo tubes and other combat equipment and diesel engines.

The construction of
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, and assembly should be completed by the end of 2022, while systems will be fitted in early 2023, according to LTN’s report.

And because of the rising treat of China, Taiwan’s military will also try to bring forward the delivery of torpedoes. The U.S. announced the sale of 18 MK-48 Mod6 Advanced Technology (AT) Heavy Weight Torpedoes (HWT) to Taiwan in May 2020.

In June 2017, The U.S. announced that it will sale 46
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to Taiwan. But in the end, ROC Navy purchased only 28 because of the limited budget. A total of 46 MK-48 heavyweight torpedoes were schedule to be delivered by 2028, now Taiwanese military will try to have all of them delivered by 2026.

Current submarine force of Taiwan

The ROC Navy currently have 4 submarines. Two of them are World War II vintage and were transferred from the U.S. in 1970’s. SS-791 ROCS Hai Shih (sea lion) was former Tench Class USS Cutlass (SS-478), ROCS Hai Pao(seal) was former Balao class USS Tusk (SS-426), both received Greater Underwater Propulsion Power Program (GUPPY) conversion, therefore unofficial called Guppy class in Taiwan. Two ships are still operational and reportedly capable of combat.

The other two are ageing Chien Lung (Sword Dragon) class, also known as Hai Lung (Sea Dragon) class. ROCS Hai Lung (Sea Dragon) SS-793 and ROCS Hai Hu (Sea Tiger) SS-794 were purchased from the Netherlands in the 1980’s.

Chien Lung class were equipped with German-made AEG SUT 264 heavyweight torpedoes. Indonesia sold licensed production SUT torpedoes to Taiwan in 1980’s, in exchange of money, landing crafts and 100,000 tons of rice.

In 2008, The U.S. announced that 32 UGM-84 Harpoon Block II missiles, along with weapon control systems, other associated equipment and services were sold to Taiwan. ROC Ministry of National Defense confirmed the existence of the sale and delivery in 2013.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
Generally, launching ahead of schedule for a first of class (and type) ship, especially for a submarine, isn't the smartest thing to do.
 
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