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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Does that mean you don't subscribe to the view that China will invade at some point simply because Taiwan puts off unification discussions? That was one part of the anti-independence legislation that was passed some years ago. Is it in your mind possible that all of us on the forum could die before unification took place and it would be for the next generation to find a solution?

Whilst I think that urgent unification via military force isn't in China's interests - although I agree that if the ROC constitution is changed to show that Taiwan is a separate legal entity from China that would trigger an attack - I don't think that anyone can guess who will be Xi's successor or what their agenda will be. I remember being lectured by Chinese nationalists that the presidential term limits were a core part of the PRC's constitution and that the CCP would never allow them to be swept away easily - right up until Xi swept them away easily.

The PRC's 100 year anniversary is the biggest China will have yet. The president of China that retakes (and holds) Taiwan - especially before 2049 - will go down in PRC history and might well replace Mao as its top leader. For someone with an ego that might be a temptation too big to pass up.

I'm not sure what the age of us on the forum is lol.

That said, I'm sure that at some point China will deliver an ultimatum to Taiwan with the threat of military force but I can't see it happening within the next decade or so if China can help it. If you note in my previous post I was rather time specific.


As for the sweeping of presidential terms for the CCP; I don't think changing it was either easy or obvious. There were a set of rather unique domestic and more importantly external geopolitical factors at play which made the formalization of state power more sensible in that regard. Not to mention the role of president was always less important than general secretary, now the two are just both more in line with each other. But this is a completely different topic, so I'm sure you can appreciate why I won't go more into it and advise you to avoid it as well.



I also think you are missing the point of my previous post -- it was specifically to clarify why the statements of "China is willing to go to war over Taiwan today and can probably win, in event its red lines are crossed" is not incongruous with the idea of "China today does not want to go to war as its first option in solving the issue, and even if China had the option to go to war today, it probably wouldn't unless its red lines were crossed".


If you're talking about things over 2, 3, 4, decades down the line, who knows.

But my previous post was specifically addressing the current strategic rationale and what I believe the rationale will be for the immediate future (10-20 years ish). Whether there are any geopolitical developments that upend said strategic rationale is another issue -- never say never, after all.
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
There wasn't any chance of Taiwan independence under Trump. Nobody knew what he was thinking or would do next, all depended on how the narrative was framed and how leading questions were given to him. At least that was the complaint. All uncoordinated among executive branch, each department doing and going for their own thing in regards to Taiwan. Pentagon wanted one thing and Lighthizer wanted totally incompatible something else. Might be different under Biden though.
For all the hoopla about Krach's visit, what Taiwan ended up getting was that mainland's tacit recognition of median line in the straight is gone now. Mainland jets did cross and will cross the line at will as they wish, as that's within China's borders. That much was said and done. Taiwan complained by default but what else DPP could do? And China lobbed two missiles right after that. Beijing gave warning to US, Taipei got the actual shit. What DPP can do? Nothing.
 

kentchang

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm not sure what the age of us on the forum is lol.

That said, I'm sure that at some point China will deliver an ultimatum to Taiwan with the threat of military force but I can't see it happening within the next decade or so if China can help it. If you note in my previous post I was rather time specific.


As for the sweeping of presidential terms for the CCP; I don't think changing it was either easy or obvious. There were a set of rather unique domestic and more importantly external geopolitical factors at play which made the formalization of state power more sensible in that regard. Not to mention the role of president was always less important than general secretary, now the two are just both more in line with each other. But this is a completely different topic, so I'm sure you can appreciate why I won't go more into it and advise you to avoid it as well.



I also think you are missing the point of my previous post -- it was specifically to clarify why the statements of "China is willing to go to war over Taiwan today and can probably win, in event its red lines are crossed" is not incongruous with the idea of "China today does not want to go to war as its first option in solving the issue, and even if China had the option to go to war today, it probably wouldn't unless its red lines were crossed".


If you're talking about things over 2, 3, 4, decades down the line, who knows.

But my previous post was specifically addressing the current strategic rationale and what I believe the rationale will be for the immediate future (10-20 years ish). Whether there are any geopolitical developments that upend said strategic rationale is another issue -- never say never, after all.

I simply cannot imagine Xi will let the Taiwan issue remain unresolved while he is in power. 2027 is a great pretext to fully modernize the Army. The early 2030's sound like perfect time to clean up historical legacies. Judging by our recent history, ten years also means the onset of the next financial crisis which provides great excuse/incentive for the U.S. not to intervene in any physical way. Hong Kong today is a good test to see if China can get away with no more than verbal condemnations. I can certainly see China getting much more aggressive to convince other countries to stay out of this fight.

The standard U.S. playbook is to stir up something locally through NGO's, get some locals to do the invite, and then publicly show support or intervene for these poor local freedom fighters. If China follows the same script, that will at least confuse the U.S. public opinion.

Perhaps by 2030, China will unilaterally announce all people in Taiwan will be treated as full Chinese citizens with all differences/restrictions removed while internationally, make sure no country recognizes Taiwan, ensure China can withstand a full U.S. economic sanction (no access to SWIFT/CHIPS, seizure of all financial assets [gold & UST], etc), and minimize all other potential external leverages (e.g. Chengdu/Chonqing's Olympic bid). Frankly I don't think any of these matters much.

Then a few years later, The People's Congress passes a reunification decree and the CCP immediately use this as legal basis to issue an ultimatum to Taiwan with much more generous terms than HK/Macao (at least a permanent autonomous region). The wording can be as simple as by a certain date, the name "Republic of China" will cease to be used, the current leadership's titles will changed, and a guarantee that everything else will be exactly the same as before (e.g. passport, local codes, and currency). All just paperwork changes. This may be followed by the nearby islands agreeing/defecting to China while China's assets in Taiwan start very vocal support of the change. In the worst case, if Taiwan declares independence (DPP cannot be that stupid), it gives China a free-ride to act militarily. If Taiwan does not, it is de facto acceptance of China's sovereignty and although the legality of applying the Sedition Law is still tenuous but grayish enough for non-lawyers to round up hard-core DPP members (a la Hong Kong) and appoint pro-Beijing locals. Refusal to negotiate or declaration of martial law provide pretext for KMT (or agitators) to question the legitimacy of the DPP government (a la Venezuela) and name itself as the rightful government which China will recognize. I am sure China has placed enough people in Taiwan already to assist if things don't go well. I am also sure China would already have patriotic 'Taiwanese' representatives in China to speak for Taiwan as (a poor) backup. All scenarios would have been war-gamed many times to get the timings down. Perhaps the ultimatum will be issued on a Friday evening or Christmas Eve.

Given all the CCP talk about Taiwan being part of one happy family, there is no chance China will deploy the military first. I don't even see a travel blockade. Let the hardcores go to Japan. Ideally the takeover will be done without any casualties. However grudgingly, China must make Taiwan people accept the terms. If a war breaks out, China will obviously win militarily but politically, it would be a totally unacceptable outcome that not even people in China will support. Jailing traitors are fine but you just don't hurt your own family members.
 
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Mr T

Senior Member
I'm not sure what the age of us on the forum is lol.
Well I think we can safely assume that the posters are adults, so bung on no more than 60-70 years.
But my previous post was specifically addressing the current strategic rationale and what I believe the rationale will be for the immediate future (10-20 years ish). Whether there are any geopolitical developments that upend said strategic rationale is another issue -- never say never, after all.
That's completely compatible with most thinking on the situation. Lots of commentators say that the danger area for Taiwan is after 10-20 years, especially due to the 100 year PRC anniversary. But that's less to do with patience and more to do with aiming for the best time to attack before 2049.

The CCP may hope for peaceful unification but currently is not doing anything to advance it. The PRC's military posture has only been effective of avoiding formal independence for Taiwan, which may not have been on the cards anyway even since 2016. If unification was done diplomatically and voluntarily it would take decades of detailed bilateral negotiations and political discussions in Taiwan to replace the current ROC constitution (which isn't compatible with the PRC's). I'm not even sure there's time left if Xi wants to force the issue before he retires for anything other than a military intervention.
 
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Hadoren

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think China already treats all Taiwanese as full Chinese citizens.
Then a few years later, The People's Congress passes a reunification decree and the CCP immediately use this as legal basis to issue an ultimatum to Taiwan with much more generous terms than HK/Macao (at least a permanent autonomous region). The wording can be as simple as by a certain date, the name "Republic of China" will cease to be used, the current leadership's titles will changed, and a guarantee that everything else will be exactly the same as before (e.g. passport, local codes, and currency). All just paperwork changes.
Like you, I believe a new model is needed for Taiwan - not One Country, Two Systems.

Personally I like the Xinjiang "bingtuan" system. Basically, China should offer full autonomy to Taiwan, while stationing soldiers in a couple bases.

The DPP can remain in power and be their usual annoying selves, elections can continue, the flag can remain the same, rights and freedoms will remain respected, yadda yadda. The bingtuan will only leave their bases under military revolt or similar circumstances.

Currently, Taiwan of course refuses any compromise with the mainland. So this option should not be publicly mentioned until the right time.

However, once reunification occurs, I think a Taiwanese "bingtuan" system could work pretty well, as it does in Xinjiang. Taiwan would freely continue everything as before. However, the soldiers and settlers in the bingtuan cities would be a reminder not to do anything stupid.

What do you all think of this idea?
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
For all the hoopla about Krach's visit, what Taiwan ended up getting was that mainland's tacit recognition of median line in the straight is gone now. Mainland jets did cross and will cross the line at will as they wish, as that's within China's borders. That much was said and done. Taiwan complained by default but what else DPP could do? And China lobbed two missiles right after that. Beijing gave warning to US, Taipei got the actual shit. What DPP can do? Nothing.

I think this says it all. It says that to the U.S. Taiwan is disposable pawn in the chess piece.

It says the English vegetable is hanging all her political capital on U.S. to come riding in. Which will never come. And don't forget folks. This isn't even the first time!

FB_IMG_1610633180526.jpg
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Well I think we can safely assume that the posters are adults, so bung on no more than 60-70 years.

That's completely compatible with most thinking on the situation. Lots of commentators say that the danger area for Taiwan is after 10-20 years, especially due to the 100 year PRC anniversary. But that's less to do with patience and more to do with aiming for the best time to attack before 2049.

The CCP may hope for peaceful unification but currently is not doing anything to advance it. The PRC's military posture has only been effective of avoiding formal independence for Taiwan, which may not have been on the cards anyway even since 2016. If unification was done diplomatically and voluntarily it would take decades of detailed bilateral negotiations and political discussions in Taiwan to replace the current ROC constitution (which isn't compatible with the PRC's). I'm not even sure there's time left if Xi wants to force the issue before he retires for anything other than a military intervention.

Well if movement towards de jure independence hasn't been something to worry about then the likelihood of military conflict in the next decade or so is likely quite low then, which I'm sure we are all reassured of.

I'm not sure what Xi's retirement has to do with anything; some people seem to believe Xi is obsessed that Taiwan be reunified with the mainland when he presides as China's leader but I haven't seen any signs of that.


As for peaceful unification, the terms and context in which negotiations can even occur -- no, even the terms and context before which the thoughts of negotiations can even occur over something like that, cannot even be agreed upon at this stage.
Neither side is interested in concessions prior to even thinking about broaching any form of negotiations. From China's side, they certainly would prefer peaceful unification -- but on their terms.



But that's all somewhat irrelevant to the point at hand I was trying to make before, which is to explain China's likely strategic rationale wrt the use of military force in the immediate and short term future vis a vis Taiwan.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
What do you all think of this idea?
Taiwan is too small geographically for it to work smoothly. Xinjiang is different because it's a large and sparsely populated province so it's easier to keep the respective areas separate. Whereas in Taiwan it would be next to impossible to have clear lines between bingtuan areas and the rest because the west coast is relatively densely populated.

Even if immediately after unification they were on their best behaviour, over time these new paramilitaries would increase their control and end up really running the show. Any official "autonomy" Taiwan had would be a sham then. In those circumstances China's standard political provincial system would at least be cleaner.

I also wonder if thinking up political systems for Taiwan after unification is both premature and too off-topic even for this thread.
 
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PiSigma

"the engineer"
I think China already treats all Taiwanese as full Chinese citizens.

Like you, I believe a new model is needed for Taiwan - not One Country, Two Systems.

Personally I like the Xinjiang "bingtuan" system. Basically, China should offer full autonomy to Taiwan, while stationing soldiers in a couple bases.

The DPP can remain in power and be their usual annoying selves, elections can continue, the flag can remain the same, rights and freedoms will remain respected, yadda yadda. The bingtuan will only leave their bases under military revolt or similar circumstances.

Currently, Taiwan of course refuses any compromise with the mainland. So this option should not be publicly mentioned until the right time.

However, once reunification occurs, I think a Taiwanese "bingtuan" system could work pretty well, as it does in Xinjiang. Taiwan would freely continue everything as before. However, the soldiers and settlers in the bingtuan cities would be a reminder not to do anything stupid.

What do you all think of this idea?
I disagree. Bingtuan is meant to secure an area with low population and plentiful land. Taiwan is more than a little dense and major lacking in land. How would the bingtuan and normal military garrison differ?

The ROC flag/currency/passport will not be kept. China learned from the HK two systems that clearly it does not work. Anyone who votes DPP can be expected to be on a blacklist for a certain amount of time until de-radicalization is complete.
 
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