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News from Shangri-La: What China said; Shot’s across Trump’s bow; Reactions; Transcripts galore
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Wei has his say: China’s defense minister finally had his turn on stage at the
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on Sunday, and after listening to the United States scold China for two days, Gen. Wei Fenghe came prepared with Beijing’s own perspective — or what many later called pure propaganda — on a long list of contentious issues between the two powers.
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On Taiwan, of the people, by the people…? You heard him right. Wei compared Taiwan to the rebel, slave-owning American South of the 1800s. “Not a single country in the world would tolerate secession. I visited the U.S. last year. American friends told me that Abraham Lincoln was the greatest American president because he led the country to victory in the Civil War and prevented the secession of the U.S. The U.S. is indivisible, so is China. China must be and will be reunified. We find no excuse not to do so. If anyone dares to split Taiwan from China, the Chinese military has no choice but to fight at all costs for national unity.”… “We make no promise to renounce the use of force.”
 
Not combat record but specs on capabilities so that some sense of judgement can be made. In other words - facts based.
How would you judge a comparison of 2 aircraft with (some) specs on only 1?

I don't understand why anyone would ask for a comparison between 2 fighters when we have so little information on one of them that we're still trying to calculate its dimensions by pixels.
 

Brumby

Major
How would you judge a comparison of 2 aircraft with (some) specs on only 1?

I don't understand why anyone would ask for a comparison between 2 fighters when we have so little information on one of them that we're still trying to calculate its dimensions by pixels.
That's the point. Without facts that statement of being comparable is propaganda
 
That's the point. Without facts that statement of being comparable is propaganda
Oh, I thought you were saying that they're not.

It was not a technical military paper. Superficially, they are both 5th gen heavy class stealth fighters so that being the level of analysis there, they called them comparable. What's really propaganda is Western media claiming that they are not comparable because there's no way China could be at that level.

Of course when we require detailed examination, which is not possible here, we don't know if they are comparable or which is superior (or most likely, they are better than each other in different areas).
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Not combat record but specs on capabilities so that some sense of judgement can be made. In other words - facts based.
add to that the F-22 has been in development and test since 1986, it does indeed now have a combat record, L/O, super maneuverability, and outstanding high altitude performance relating back to its very superior F-119's....

in real life the J-20 is flying with Russian AL-31FN's or Chinese WS-10's, which by any measure are a generation behind the F-22's power plants, so there's really no comparison...

the J-20 is China's most advanced combat aircraft no doubt, but to suggest it is comparable to the F-22 is to defy the laws of physics?

that's before we get into avionics and fire control systems...

there's hope that at some point in the future the J-20 will finally receive the WS-15, and then we shall see.....
 
add to that the F-22 has been in development and test since 1986, it does indeed now have a combat record, L/O, super maneuverability, and outstanding high altitude performance relating back to its very superior F-119's....

in real life the J-20 is flying with Russian AL-31FN's or Chinese WS-10's, which by any measure are a generation behind the F-22's power plants, so there's really no comparison...

the J-20 is China's most advanced combat aircraft no doubt, but to suggest it is comparable to the F-22 is to defy the laws of physics?

that's before we get into avionics and fire control systems...

there's hope that at some point in the future the J-20 will finally receive the WS-15, and then we shall see.....
I think you are confused thinking older means better in terms of jet design.

The only part we know of is that the F-22 has superior engines to the J-20, so to have them parked on the tarmac, locked down, and engines turned on with you standing behind them, there's no comparison.

Everything else, even kinematic performance, is the result of many factors (including aerodynamic design and aircraft weight) beyond thrust. The laws of physics are much more complicated than you realize if you suggest you can discern aircraft performance just by engine thrust. That's not to mention the newer radar, systems, etc... on the J-20 that are much more relevant to modern aerial combat than engine power.

Of course, with WS-15, we are talking about a J-20 superior to this J-20 but as the J-20 is now, there is nothing to say that it isn't fully a peer of or superior to the much older F-22.
 

Brumby

Major
Oh, I thought you were saying that they're not.

It was not a technical military paper. Superficially, they are both 5th gen heavy class stealth fighters so that being the level of analysis there, they called them comparable. What's really propaganda is Western media claiming that they are not comparable because there's no way China could be at that level.

Of course when we require detailed examination, which is not possible here, we don't know if they are comparable or which is superior (or most likely, they are better than each other in different areas).
That's the point. Without facts that's just stretching meaning of words to fit a preferred narrative. Propaganda doesn't require facts, logic or the presence of truth value in the content - just cow droppings will do.
 
here comes
Updated 6 hours ago
Exclusive: U.S. pursues sale of over $2 billion in weapons to Taiwan, sources say, angering China
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The United States is pursuing the sale of more than $2 billion worth of tanks and weapons to Taiwan, four people familiar with the negotiations said, sparking anger from Beijing which is already involved in an escalating trade war with Washington.

An informal notification of the proposed sale has been sent to the U.S. Congress, the four sources said on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about the possible deal.

The potential sale included 108 General Dynamics Corp M1A2 Abrams tanks worth around $2 billion as well as anti-tank and anti-aircraft munitions, three of the sources said. Taiwan has been interested in refreshing its existing U.S.-made battle tank inventory, which includes M60 Patton tanks.

The United States is the main arms supplier to Taiwan, which China deems its own and has never renounced the use of force to bring the self-ruled island under its control.

Taiwan President Tsai Ing-wen said in March Washington was responding positively to Taipei’s requests for new arms sales to bolster its defenses in the face of pressure from China. The United States has no formal ties with Taiwan but is bound by law to help provide it with the means to defend itself.

China and the United States are engaged in a fierce trade war, with clashes over Taiwan and the South China Sea exacerbating tensions.

A spokesman for the State Department, which oversees foreign military sales, said the U.S. government does not comment on or confirm potential or pending arms sales or transfers before they have been formally notified to Congress.

The congressional notifications included a variety of anti-tank munitions, including 409 Raytheon Co and Lockheed Martin Corp-made Javelin missiles worth as much as $129 million, two of the sources said.

The notifications also included 1,240 TOW anti-tank missiles worth as much as $299 million, one of the sources said. There were also 250 stinger missiles worth as much as $223 million in the notification, the source said.

Stingers are often used in portable anti-aircraft weapons systems.

Taiwan’s Defense Ministry confirmed it had requested those weapons and that the request was proceeding normally.

The U.S. commitment to providing Taiwan with the weapons to defend itself helps Taiwan’s military to raise its combat abilities, consolidates the Taiwan-U.S. security partnership and ensures Taiwan’s security, the ministry said in a statement.

The Chinese government condemned the planned sale.

“We are severely concerned about the U.S. move and are firmly against U.S. arms sales to Taiwan,” Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang told a daily news briefing in Beijing.

China urges the United States to stop arms sales to Taiwan and prudently deal with issues relating to Taiwan to prevent harm to bilateral relations and peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait, he added.

CHINA HAWK
U.S. President Donald Trump’s administration rolled out a long-awaited overhaul of U.S. arms export policy in 2018 aimed at expanding sales to allies, saying it would bolster the American defense industry and create jobs at home.

Trump’s trade adviser Peter Navarro was one of the administration’s architects of that policy. Navarro, a China hawk, wrote about the possible sale of tanks to Taiwan in a March opinion column in the New York Times ahead of a presidential trip to the Lima, Ohio, plant where they are made.

At a low point, the U.S. Army had only one tank coming from the plant a month, General Dynamics CEO Phebe Novakovic said during an April conference call with investors, but said “we’ll be rolling out 30 tanks a month by the end of this year,” partly because of international orders.

The Pentagon announced last week it would sell 34 ScanEagle drones, made by Boeing Co, to the governments of Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines and Vietnam for $47 million.

The drones would afford greater intelligence-gathering capabilities, potentially curbing Chinese activity in the region.

China claims almost all of the strategic South China Sea and frequently lambastes the United States and its allies over naval operations near Chinese-occupied islands. Brunei, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan and Vietnam all have competing claims.

China’s Defense Minister Wei Fenghe warned the United States at the Shangri-La Dialogue in Singapore last weekend not to meddle in security disputes over Taiwan and the South China Sea.

Acting U.S. Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan told the meeting that the United States would no longer “tiptoe” around China’s behavior in Asia.

Taiwan’s Foreign Ministry, responding to the Reuters report of planned the new arms sale, said Wei’s “threatening” comments and recent Chinese military drills near Taiwan showed the importance of its need to strengthen its defensive abilities.

“Going forward our government will continue to deepen the close security partnership between Taiwan and the United States,” it said.
 

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