Pakistan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

BoggedDown

New Member
Registered Member
Though JF17 and J10C have many similar features and capabilities but of course size also matter how they perform. So despite how well JF17 perform, J10C will perform better. The big disadvantage of JF17, it is being mainly operated by PAF and not by PLA Air. So in a prolong war of attrition with India, PAF will be hard pressed to get their replacements to maintain strength. But with J10C, there will be abundant pool of potential replacements if required from China in short notice just need to repaint. Another disadvantage is with JF17 PAF need to develop air war strategies alone and fine tune the machine and procedures accordingly. But with J10, PAF and PLA Air can jointly develop, optimize its full potentials and share knowledge. In fact PAF has decided it will never again operate a type alone unless it is operational in host country. This is the main reason though there were many pushes for J31 but PAF has resisted it so far. Also due to BRI and to counter Indo-pacfic strategy, Cold war 2.0, quad alignment what ever you call it, Pakistan and PLA/Air/Navy will have more and more common strategy, training and equipment etc in future.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
There is much pride in Pakistan regarding the JF17, that is understanding and perfectly justified, but one should not let oneself be blinded by pride like others in the region.

Yes, the JF17 BLK3 does add a lot of systems of features also found on the J10C, but one have to be fooling oneself to think that a BLK3 is equivalent to a J10C.

Even if we assume that China allows for export AESA radars of the same tech level as what their J10C uses, you cannot get away from the basic physics of the J10’s much bigger radome and array side. Not to mention much greater power output from the engines. The same applies to all other avionics and sub systems. Furthermore, the J10C is PL10 and PL15 compatible. There is no proof beyond unsubstantiated rumours that the BLK3 will even get that capability

While a JF17 BLK3 might have a chance against a Rafale, you would have a much greater chance of winning in a J10C.

Yes, the J10C doesn’t add anything revolutionary to the PAF, but then neither does the Rafale for the IAF.

While a 5th gen would absolutely be revolutionary for the PAF and pretty much flip the scales in terms of balance of power against the IAF if inducted in numbers, such a development is at best a decade down the road considering we haven’t even seen a final pre-production prototype of the J31/35 yet. If that programme has the backing of the PLAN, then that would still be a mixed blessing for the PAF, as while such Chinese commitment would guarantee that the plane be built and not require huge financial commitment from the PAF, it does mean that the PLAN would be setting the design prioritises, so the PAF would be buying off the shelf rather than have a tailor made plane like the JF17. In addition, the PLAN would monopolise any early production batches, so the PAF will not get any birds delivered under years after the type has entered production.

One needs to look at the current geopolitical situation and not merely assume all will be well for the next 15-20 years.

Recent American and Indian actions have significantly changed the strategic picture, and Pakistan and China would not be so foolish as to not match hedges and contingency plans in accordance.

J10Cs tomorrow is infinitely more useful than J31/35s in a decade and a half of a major conflict breaks out later this year.
 

BoggedDown

New Member
Registered Member
I would say JF17 is more of a product of desperation that PAF was in during 90s. If PAF could revisit and planned in later decades it would have rather hooked with J10 program. JF17 is more or less a dead end product, Block III will probably the last iteration. There is not much room left to improve due to size and technology wise unless they want to recreate the whole program. Only think which was holding J10 was the engine as PAF was not ready to commit another engine dependency with Russia. Also in the early days there was uncertainty whether Russia would allow Al31 even for use by PLA, export of it was even greater uncertainty. Now as finally J10 engine issue is resolved, PAF will most probably revisit their plan for J10 near future.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
If PAF could revisit and planned in later decades it would have rather hooked with J10 program.

That wasn't an option. The J-10 wasn't offered to Pakistan until the early 00's, well after Pakistan had already gone all-in on the Thunder. Let's keep in mind, the JF-17s history is very complicated, as it encompasses 3 separate projects, by 4 different countries, and one of those countries sanctioned the other two, mid development! lolz... The technical term for such a project is a "clusterf**ck". The fact that we're even discussing an AESA gen 4+ version of the JF-17 today is crazy. So I'm just happy it even exists, despite all the odds.

As for the J-10, obviously it's better than the Thunder (that's always been true, objectively) and I would love it if the PAF gets a couple of squadrons of this bird. But the problem is the same as it was 20 years ago: $$$$. And it's not just the expense of logistics, but all the man hours in standing up a new platform and mastering it, from the pilots to the engineering staff.

But still, I'd love to get a couple of squadrons of the J-10C, because the net effect will be priceless... India pays a quarter of a billion dollars per Rafale, and Pakistan turns around and buys J-10Cs, completely nullifying the IAF's purchase.... It may be worth it just for the sake of comedy.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
I would say JF17 is more of a product of desperation that PAF was in during 90s. If PAF could revisit and planned in later decades it would have rather hooked with J10 program. JF17 is more or less a dead end product, Block III will probably the last iteration. There is not much room left to improve due to size and technology wise unless they want to recreate the whole program. Only think which was holding J10 was the engine as PAF was not ready to commit another engine dependency with Russia. Also in the early days there was uncertainty whether Russia would allow Al31 even for use by PLA, export of it was even greater uncertainty. Now as finally J10 engine issue is resolved, PAF will most probably revisit their plan for J10 near future.

That’s applying hindsight and imposing future knowledge on past decisions.

At the time when the JF17 project was first started in earnest (after moving past the initial Super7 phase), even the PLAAF wasn’t sure how well the J10 would turn out, hence their original commitment to purchase 250 for PLAAF’s own use.

It is also unfair to say that the JF17 is a ‘dead end’ project because it has reached the natural end of its developmental path. Every plane is a ‘dead end’ by that definition.

The JF17 is a better fit for Pakistan than the J10. The Chinese would not have offered the same degree of ToT on the J10, nor would Pakistan had any design input on the J10A or subsequent versions. The best they can do is offer their own suggestions, but it would be entirely down to the PLAAF’s discretion on whether to take that onboard.

Beyond the technical aspects, there is also the price tag. The PAF would not be able to afford as many J10s as it could JF17s. Hourly operational costs would also be significantly higher.

On top of that, the J10 is a very different design and requires a very different technique and strategy to use in air combat. The JF17 was designed to perform as closely to the F16 as possible aerodynamically speaking. That massively helps in terms of pilot training and cross platform certification for the PAF.

Simply put, a F16 pilot can use a JF17 to full effect with minimal familiarisation training, since the JF17 flies so similar the the F16 he would already be intimately familiarity with. Whereas he would almost have to start from scratch to use the J10 to its full potential.

That wasn't an option. The J-10 wasn't offered to Pakistan until the early 00's, well after Pakistan had already gone all-in on the Thunder. Let's keep in mind, the JF-17s history is very complicated, as it encompasses 3 separate projects, by 4 different countries, and one of those countries sanctioned the other two, mid development! lolz... The technical term for such a project is a "clusterf**ck". The fact that we're even discussing an AESA gen 4+ version of the JF-17 today is crazy. So I'm just happy it even exists, despite all the odds.

As for the J-10, obviously it's better than the Thunder (that's always been true, objectively) and I would love it if the PAF gets a couple of squadrons of this bird. But the problem is the same as it was 20 years ago: $$$$. And it's not just the expense of logistics, but all the man hours in standing up a new platform and mastering it, from the pilots to the engineering staff.

But still, I'd love to get a couple of squadrons of the J-10C, because the net effect will be priceless... India pays a quarter of a billion dollars per Rafale, and Pakistan turns around and buys J-10Cs, completely nullifying the IAF's purchase.... It may be worth it just for the sake of comedy.

Well, I think there is a chance that Beijing has decided a couple billion dollars is a price worth paying to piss on India’s Rafale party after all their anti-China BS and decided to just gift Pakistan a few squadrons of J10B/Cs.

Beyond the troll factor, this would be a very unsubtle reminder to Modi that China could force India to spend itself into oblivion if it so wished. India did an almighty flex to get those Rafales, which China could effectively nullify without any effort at all.

Geography does not favour China in terms of deep and board offensive options against India. But even so it ties down the bulk of India’s best forces with its mere existence.

If China were to start massively subsidising Pakistani defence spending with generous loans or even direct military aid, as well as move substantial PLA frontline combat forces into Pakistan ostensively to safeguard its belt and road investments, one can easily imagine the level of hysterics that would cause in India, and the damage that would do to Indian finances as it scrambles to buy every weapon under the sun to try to ‘counter’ these developments.

Beyond some token speeches, none of the other major powers would even object, as they would be too busy licking their lips at the prospect of grabbing a piece of the massive Indian foreign weapons procurement pie.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
PLA is setting up camp near Kashmir for the long haul. CPEC, BRI, Iranian routes run through this region and even discounting J-10s for PAF and allowing a few squadrons of J-10Cs before a PAF 5th gen is a cheaper price to pay than building more airfields for PLAAF J-10C. Either way, those produced J-10Cs will not be positioned in the east/Pacific and if Pakistan can't buy them at heavily discounted prices, there may be ways to work out conditions for operation where India threatens a common interest of Pak/China.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
China's generosity is always appreciated, but the PAF also has to consider the time it takes to master a new platform. There are some air forces that induct fighters as if they're supercars. Look at our brothers in Qatar, they operate small batches of Eagles, Eurofighters, Mirage2Ks and Rafales. They can have fun like that and that's great. But the PAF needs to master each platform it operates because we face an existential threat. And that requires hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of combined man hours. It's an organizational effort.

But with all of that said, I still think that buying a couple of squadrons of the J-10C is a good move, because the PL-15 is a necessity now. Whether we can get the PL-15 on the Block III or the J-10C (or hopefully both) that remains an open question for now. Plus, the J-10C also has the added benefit of payload capacity and that will be very helpful for a smaller opponent against a larger one. The other benefit of the J-10C is that it will help the joint-training and integration between the PAF and the PLAAF, which is continuing at a rapid pace. And then of course there's the comedy factor of nullifying India's 9.2 billion dollar purchase, which like I said, would be priceless.
 

timepass

Brigadier
Guys things are hotting up WRT J10 induction in PAF .... now different defense pages on social media are quoting numbers too (~60 - 3 sqdn).....

No sources confirmation yet......
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Additional points against J-10C procurement:

1) As a platform it overlaps with the F-16 as the high end of PAF.
2) Export version of J-10C will use WS-10 or AL-31 and neither is in use with the PAF. This will cause logistics issues. FC-31, or at least the earlier batch, will share similar engines with the Jf-17.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Additional points against J-10C procurement:

1) As a platform it overlaps with the F-16 as the high end of PAF.
2) Export version of J-10C will use WS-10 or AL-31 and neither is in use with the PAF. This will cause logistics issues. FC-31, or at least the earlier batch, will share similar engines with the Jf-17.

Pakistani is not gonna get more F-16s
 
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