News on China's scientific and technological development.

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm under no illusion when it comes to the US. They have never slowed down and have only enjoyed improved means to out-accelerate China even an organised, well funded China with its act together. While China is just so bloody impressive these days, it still doesn't come close to touching the US.
Really? China doesn't come close to touching the US? If China is so far behind, why will China soon have the world's
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, the world's first exascale machine?

In semiconductors, China is perhaps 5 years from catching up and 10 years from dominating. Ten years is not a long time for total dominance in a critical industry.

Every index and metric shows the gap is still wide ...
Every index and metric? Nonsense. China is already far ahead of the Americans in manufacturing. In science and technology, China is catching up very quickly; it helps a lot to have ten times more STEM graduates each year than the US.


... and will involve time consuming efforts, systemic changes, and mass funding campaigns that become productive, to bridge the overall gap.
Yes, catching up to the US will take a lot of man-years of work. But you are thinking in tiny Taiwanese or Hong Konger terms. Mainland China can spend a lot of educated man-years every year, and will catch up far sooner than a narrow-minded Taiwanese or Hong Konger can possibly imagine.
 
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foofy

Junior Member
Registered Member
CRRC is part of the transport sector. They're impressive and world leading now... even beyond Japan, Canada, Germany, and France for high speed rail technologies and manufacturing.

But you're right. Those are some impressive and respectable "branded" hardware players and some of them have decent reach and spread of expertise. Unfortunately Chinese ones just aren't allowed to get as much international exposure and market share. Their products are dollar for dollar, gram for gram much superior price:quality, price: performance, and sometimes leading tech that no one else has developed e.g. transparent TV for Xiaomi's case as one example. BYD blade batteries etc. I didn't list them all because I'm not familiar with all of them. Those electronics ones you listed are mostly just boring white goods developer and manufacturers. Some of them have reached impressive status like BYD with the tech they have developed or Lenovo but Gree and Midea make washing machines and ACs... it's just not like Honeywell with armies of engineers developing everything from thermostats to turbofan engines to exotic materials. There are ones that have already got there though like Huawei. It's why it has been assaulted by the ungodly forces of the dreaded "free world" lawyers.

I'm convinced those "free world" lawyers are literally the spawn of satan. If anyone has experience with these types, it's like they're no longer human. It's impossible to converse and debate them. They win by their own rules. Anyway, STEM is a paradise island in the sea of ignorance and depravity. The western world and the ability of its general population to think has long been corrupted by these lawyer types that come as politicians, corporate rulers, media elites etc. They call it liberal democracy but it's just the foundation work for the fourth reich. The cracks have already begun showing. It's always called a different thing and then they get their lawyer foot soldiers out to confuse, obfuscate, divide and conquer. Decent normal people have no fucking chance. They'll talk you to death like the US is trying to talk/slander China to death.
Not only Gree is the biggest manufacturer of air conditioner in this world, they also manufacture air conditioner for nuclear reactor.

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China Gree’s newly-developed centrifugal chiller breaks European and American monopoly
By Zhang Yuan (People's Daily Online) 10:19, August 13, 2015
 

foofy

Junior Member
Registered Member
CRRC is part of the transport sector. They're impressive and world leading now... even beyond Japan, Canada, Germany, and France for high speed rail technologies and manufacturing.

But you're right. Those are some impressive and respectable "branded" hardware players and some of them have decent reach and spread of expertise. Unfortunately Chinese ones just aren't allowed to get as much international exposure and market share. Their products are dollar for dollar, gram for gram much superior price:quality, price: performance, and sometimes leading tech that no one else has developed e.g. transparent TV for Xiaomi's case as one example. BYD blade batteries etc. I didn't list them all because I'm not familiar with all of them. Those electronics ones you listed are mostly just boring white goods developer and manufacturers. Some of them have reached impressive status like BYD with the tech they have developed or Lenovo but Gree and Midea make washing machines and ACs... it's just not like Honeywell with armies of engineers developing everything from thermostats to turbofan engines to exotic materials. There are ones that have already got there though like Huawei. It's why it has been assaulted by the ungodly forces of the dreaded "free world" lawyers.

I'm convinced those "free world" lawyers are literally the spawn of satan. If anyone has experience with these types, it's like they're no longer human. It's impossible to converse and debate them. They win by their own rules. Anyway, STEM is a paradise island in the sea of ignorance and depravity. The western world and the ability of its general population to think has long been corrupted by these lawyer types that come as politicians, corporate rulers, media elites etc. They call it liberal democracy but it's just the foundation work for the fourth reich. The cracks have already begun showing. It's always called a different thing and then they get their lawyer foot soldiers out to confuse, obfuscate, divide and conquer. Decent normal people have no fucking chance. They'll talk you to death like the US is trying to talk/slander China to death.
Lenovo not only the biggest manufacturer of pc, but also the biggest manufacturer of supercomputer in top 500 list.

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As of June 2020, Lenovo ranked first among vendors for system share of the top 500 supercomputers worldwide, occupying 36 percent of the market. Sugon ranked second, accounting for 13.6 percent of the top 500 supercomputers globally.3 Jul 2020
 
Alibaba, Tencent etc can innovate all they want in software but when things become hard and TSMC is banned from supplying them, they cramble like 200 years old buildings...
So because China is catching up in hardware, it should call behind further behind in software? There are no resource constraints that make catching up in both areas mutually exclusive. Alibaba and Tencent need to continue to invest in and innovate their cloud businesses to catch up to US leaders in cloud computing and services. China is lagging in cloud infrastructure and cloud adoption, there is plenty of opportunity for growth there. An added benefit of cloud computing is it can partially offset disadvantages in hardware technology. A growing cloud infrastructure can also contribute to demand for domestic chips.
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
So because China is catching up in hardware, it should call behind further behind in software? There are no resource constraints that make catching up in both areas mutually exclusive.
I agree that China should be able to do hardware AND software at the same time.

Alibaba and Tencent need to continue to invest in and innovate their cloud businesses to catch up to US leaders in cloud computing and services.

China is lagging in cloud infrastructure and cloud adoption, there is plenty of opportunity for growth there.
However, I would be a little cautious about relying too much on centralized cloud services. If everyone did that, they would be in deep trouble if the central data center should fail. Note that 5G's architecture distributes routing over many nodes, like the Internet, and should therefore be much more fault tolerant.
 

gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
Cloud services are not physically centralized. They are distributed around different regional data centers with multiple disaster recovery backups. Stop acting like no one has thought of basic obvious stuff. The last thing China needs right now is Luddites holding back its progress while the US charges ahead.

Also, if China is going to do antitrust, then China's companies have to established collaborative agreements to jointly invest in technology like cloud services, AI, and chipmaking. This stuff is too capital/data intensive for single medium-sized companies to be able to sufficiently develop them independently.

Agreed that software is just as important as hardware. Japan was good in hardware but failed at software which is why it fell behind.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
This guy nails it. China's innovation advantage lies in its ordinary people --- the massive scale they are willing to adopt new technologies is unparalleled anywhere in the planet.

 
Cloud services are not physically centralized. They are distributed around different regional data centers with multiple disaster recovery backups. Stop acting like no one has thought of basic obvious stuff. The last thing China needs right now is Luddites holding back its progress while the US charges ahead.
Exactly, each data center can serve as a backup for other data centers, which is where a part of the efficiency kicks in. Otherwise, a company relying on on-premise servers will have to provide this redundancy on their own by provisioning it's own back ups.

From my limited understanding of the China's Cloud computing landscape, one obstacle to cloud adoption is corporate culture. Companies tend to feel uneasy about letting another company manage and store their data. Hence, the barrier to wider cloud adoption in China may not purely be technical or economic. The cultural and trust issues must also be addressed, and this may actually be the harder problem to solve.
 

horse

Major
Registered Member
However, I would be a little cautious about relying too much on centralized cloud services. If everyone did that, they would be in deep trouble if the central data center should fail. Note that 5G's architecture distributes routing over many nodes, like the Internet, and should therefore be much more fault tolerant.
This I have been away from for a long time, but I still would describe roughly the way you describe it, up to a point.

Cloud servers are centralized.

Adding additional clusters of servers creates the redundancy.

Now with the new 5G technology, this seems to be all whacked out. With the instantaneous network connections, due to low latency, which is primary servers or cluster or whatever they call it now, and who is the backup machines.

Is the primary and redundancy happening all at once, because of the low latency network?

This is so kick ass, it is hard to even trying to think about, obsolete people like me do not understand that engineering (data flow) is going to work!

Huawei has the best 5G network tech.

Huawei has the best cloud servers systems.

Old article.

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hkbc

Junior Member
Agreed that software is just as important as hardware. Japan was good in hardware but failed at software which is why it fell behind.

When you're growing your software expertise it actually helps to have underpowered hardware, so you don't fall into bad habits, in western commercial IT so much code is sub-optimal because you can get away with it, all that power the hardware provides just goes to waste. BTW Japan didn't fail at software, it failed in adoption, this is a country where they still use FAX machines to conduct business, despite its outward modernity Japan seems deeply conservative, not necessarily a bad thing to maintain identity and social cohesion but not the ideal attributes in dealing with a cut throat world!

China has the same/better iterative advancement approach as the Japanese had in the 70s and 80s


But with much greater human resource potential sitting behind it and an internal market large enough to support/shield domestic companies from foreign dictates.

As an example the underpinnings of Huawei's Harmony OS is a very different design philosophy than its western peers and will, if adopted widely, make a material difference to China's technological landscape much in the same way that the WeChat ecosystem makes iOS largely irrelevant in China but at the next layer down.

The other modern Chinese attribute that is less spoken about is that it's very forward looking, China has not developed an internal combustion car engine to rival what the Germans and Japanese have, they're middle of the road but not class leading, 10 years ago you would have everyone bemoaning how backward and behind China is in cars and will it ever catchup and all the disasters that will befall the world if it did! However, it bet heavily in an electric automotive future so in one step become competitive and potentially leapfrogging past everyone.

Photo/light based silicon lithography will reach its physical limits (this time for real, when I was at University many many decades ago, had lectures in EE about about the challenges of scaling at 1um!) the pursuit of processing power and associated power consumption will have to go in a different direction, an inflexion point.

Keeping the lights on in the present, by figuratively staying alive (looking at you Huawei), is important but its the inflexion points where things will be decided. It might never matter if China doesn't get past 5nm line size in silicon semi conductors. Resources are finite throwing money at playing catch up is less efficient than throwing money at shifting the paradigm, obviously assuming you have the ability to shift the paradigm, which is why Africa is not full of AI startups! The emphasis on IoT, AI and increase in state sponsored R&D spending, both from necessity and ability standpoints it seems the powers that be have concluded that it can.

Long winded way of saying don't be setting up to fight yesterday's war but tomorrow's!
 
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