News on China's scientific and technological development.

gimfoxhound

New Member
Registered Member
First of all, I don't think China is using imported CNCs for WS-10 or QC280 or anything remotely related to military. Remember the Toshiba selling CNC to USSR? These kind of machines are in strict export control (blocked) to China.

Second of all, I don't think China is behind anyone. Yes China is very new in this area, only caught up to the top players recently, but as of today (in the past few years) China is on the same league of the top in CNC making....

There is another recent Documentary talking about polishing the surface of turbine blade by CNC using tinny sand blasting nuzzle.

In a simple term, you can say J-20 is decades later than F-22, but as of today China has the fighter in the same class as the US.
Nothing to add, totally agree with this post.
During the cold war's era US created Cocom instance. This organisation tried to ban any sensitive western product to USSR in the goal to hamper soviet weapon's industry. The result was the exact contrary. USSR did not need western's technology.
Nowadays seeing what I see about the trade war, how can US allow a such transfert of technology that allow China to disput the challenge against US. Americans consider themselves as the arsenal of the democracies, they De Facto have the leadership of all West. What does it means ? It means if Germans, swiss, south koreans produce an innovative technologies, US consider that they are the owners, and they can decide who can trade with, who cannot trade. For that reason I have a doubt strong doubt about US agreements of such transfert. The fact that China developed from scratch its WS-10 it means China developed with its own. I suspect Russia helped China to overcome the WS-10's problem, that leads in fine to WS-15.
My first studies was mechanical engineering. The Jet engine is no more than the overcome of too much challenge, metallurgic's basis, tool machinery environnements, transport. But the foremost is the personal, it asks scientists that teach engineers, technicians and after the production. I think the WS-15 asked China to implement its own industiral basis, and chineses succeeded by their own.
I was told that "Chinese CNC penetration in industry is still low roughly 30% compare to 60 or 70% in Japan, Germany or Korea." It could be correct, but as western sources, and it depends witch client, for what, and where. Finally I suspect China is narrowing the gap with West in high level tool machinery, and maybe they are now equal else better than Japan and Swiss. To end my comment, Iam not chinese, I don't pretend to know better than you, however China became a superpower, and superpower in all areas, nothing can stop chineses to become the leaders in high CNC's technology.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
Nothing to add, totally agree with this post.
During the cold war's era US created Cocom instance. This organisation tried to ban any sensitive western product to USSR in the goal to hamper soviet weapon's industry. The result was the exact contrary. USSR did not need western's technology.
Nowadays seeing what I see about the trade war, how can US allow a such transfert of technology that allow China to disput the challenge against US. Americans consider themselves as the arsenal of the democracies, they De Facto have the leadership of all West. What does it means ? It means if Germans, swiss, south koreans produce an innovative technologies, US consider that they are the owners, and they can decide who can trade with, who cannot trade. For that reason I have a doubt strong doubt about US agreements of such transfert. The fact that China developed from scratch its WS-10 it means China developed with its own. I suspect Russia helped China to overcome the WS-10's problem, that leads in fine to WS-15.
My first studies was mechanical engineering. The Jet engine is no more than the overcome of too much challenge, metallurgic's basis, tool machinery environnements, transport. But the foremost is the personal, it asks scientists that teach engineers, technicians and after the production. I think the WS-15 asked China to implement its own industiral basis, and chineses succeeded by their own.
I was told that "Chinese CNC penetration in industry is still low roughly 30% compare to 60 or 70% in Japan, Germany or Korea." It could be correct, but as western sources, and it depends witch client, for what, and where. Finally I suspect China is narrowing the gap with West in high level tool machinery, and maybe they are now equal else better than Japan and Swiss. To end my comment, Iam not chinese, I don't pretend to know better than you, however China became a superpower, and superpower in all areas, nothing can stop chineses to become the leaders in high CNC's technology.

Chinese high technology factories still use Western measuring instruments, Mitutoyo and German brands. High level tools that make machines are still imported from the West.
 

gimfoxhound

New Member
Registered Member
Chinese high technology factories still use Western measuring instruments, Mitutoyo and German brands. High level tools that make machines are still imported from the West.
I don't and never say the contrary. However this sophisticated tool machinery are not enough to make advanced engines like WS-10 or others fate like WS-15 that is the pinnacle of what chinese's know-how is capable. Washington deters any ultra sophisticated tool bought to China by any western company. Else they undergo the furor of US. Iam nearly sure that China did all with their own tool machinery, for that reason I asked you this question where is China.
Since 2010 US used to see China as strategic threat, an example of this publication shows you how US feared the development China.
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I don't see US ease the rise of a strategic rival, on the contrary. The trade war proves that US want to kneecap China, and not to help China. It is not only Trump or his team that want to hamper chinese development but all US establishment want to get ride of China. In fact the situation is like the cold war, US implemented the same instance -secret or not ?- like the Cocom and obliged all western countries they like or not, to comply to what Washington wants. If indeed Japan, Swiss even US companies buy some sophisticated hardware, it is nevertheless limited, and don't allow for example to build a submarine, a satelitte, to go to the moon, Rockets, Y-20 etc....

PS- Sorry for my english, it is not my mother tongue. Moreover and I repeat again I don't pretend to know all, especially about China. Iam not chinese, Iam french.
 
Saturday at 7:00 PM
now noticed the tweet
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Le tout 1er lancement spatial chinois sur mer aura lieu mercredi prochain aux coordonnées 34°53'58.02"N 121°11'25.01"E. Une zone de 20 km autour est interdite de survol. La fusée CZ-11 décollera vers 03h56 UTC depuis un cargo transformé, pour mettre en orbite 2 petits satellites.
Translated from French by
The first Chinese space launch at sea will take place next Wednesday at coordinates 34 ° 53'58.02 "N 121 ° 11'25.01" E. A zone of 20 km around is prohibited from overflight. The rocket CZ-11 will take off around 03:56 UTC from a converted cargo ship, to put into orbit two small satellites.
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now
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JUST IN: The Long March-11 carrier rocket, carrying two experimental technology satellites and five commercial satellites, successfully launched from the Yellow Sea at 12:06 pm on Wed local time, marking the first sea-based space launch in China
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
To make myself clear, the discussion about Chinese CNC was due to the concern of ongoing trade war may hinder Chinese engine production. My answer was NO hinderance. It is not the same of saying China's OVERALL CNC market position is better than other top players.

In the limited case of Chinese engine production (WS-15 or WS-10), we are talking about very limited number of high end CNC numbering in one or two per plant (just figurative). Making such limited number of top CNC in the past 10 years is no problem for China.

On the other hand, in the open commercial market, we are talking about a much bigger number selling to many manufacturing plants all over the world. This needs high capacity, say 10 per year, with high quality consistency. In this case, decades of experience in fabrication, quality control, customer service and branding reputation all come into play. China is certainly very new in this field, and I think the ranking of China is still way behind.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
First of all, I don't think China is using imported CNCs for WS-10 or QC280 or anything remotely related to military. Remember the Toshiba selling CNC to USSR? These kind of machines are in strict export control (blocked) to China.

Second of all, I don't think China is behind anyone. Yes China is very new in this area, only caught up to the top players recently, but as of today (in the past few years) China is on the same league of the top in CNC making. See this Documentary
at 24:34.

There is another recent Documentary talking about polishing the surface of turbine blade by CNC using tinny sand blasting nuzzle.

In a simple term, you can say J-20 is decades later than F-22, but as of today China has the fighter in the same class as the US.

There CNC tool and CNC tool Notice the blade that is on Staraag CNC is dark color most like a Titanium one Titanium metal has excellent characteristic to withstand high temperature and most likely bu used in first stage turbine
But titanium is very hard to machine as the article below explained It is almost impossible to machine it using CNC tool
I have no doubt that China can make excellent CNC machine tool But there is only couple of CBC machine tool that can do the job of machining Titanium
Swiss has been dealing with China for a long time even during economic blockade of China 1949- 1974
During WWI they sell 35 mm gun to both the German and the Allied
They have along tradition of fine machinery and Gas Turbine See even the Robot in your video is manufacturer by ABB (Acker, Brown Boveri). Brown Boveri is well known name in Gas turbine and automatic machinery
upload_2019-6-5_17-22-31.png



WHY IS MACHINING TITANIUM DIFFICULT?
Why-Is-Machining-Titanium-Difficult-Image.jpg

Titanium and its alloys are increasingly seeing widespread use in aerospace and biomedical applications that take advantage of its unique properties. However, machining titanium also presents unique challenges that precision engineers accustomed to machining other metals will find difficult. Here we look at why machining titanium is so difficult and
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you can use to get the best results when machining titanium.

WHY TITANIUM IS SO POPULAR
While aluminum and aluminum alloys were previously the
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y, newer aircraft designs are increasingly making use of titanium and titanium alloys. These materials are also used in the biomedical industry. The reasons for their popularity include light weight, high strength, excellent fatigue performance and high resistance to aggressive environments, remaining free of rust and degeneration. Titanium parts last longer and provide better performance and results than other metals and materials.

precision-machining-titanium--300x200.jpg


WHY TITANIUM IS SO DIFFICULT TO MACHINE

The very properties that make titanium such a beneficial and high-performance metal are also the properties that can make it difficult to machine. Just as when using aluminum and aluminum alloys, up to 90% of the material may need to be milled and turned away to produce the final part.

Titanium alloys have a low Young’s modulus, which causes spring back and chatter during machining. This can create poor surface quality in the finished product.

Because of titanium’s high work hardening tendency and the stickiness of the alloy, long continuous chips are formed during turning and drilling, which can entangle the tool and impede function. This almost eliminates the possibility of automating titanium machining.

Despite these setbacks, there are techniques that make machining titanium easier.


HOW TO MACHINE TITANIUM
Machining titanium requires coated carbide tools that will resist the stickiness of the alloy and break up the long chips. The tool coating also helps to manage the heat produced with machining.

Keeping radial engagement low is important to counteract the effects of heat generation and work hardening tendency. Increasing the number of flutes in the end mills can help to counteract the lower feed per tooth to increase productivity.

Application of high pressure coolant helps to reduce heat and damage to the tool. Currently, ultrasonic assisted machining is in R&D. The goal is to reduce the contact time of the tool, and prolong tool life.

The technique used when machining titanium can also help to improve results. By using ‘climb milling’, arcing in, ending on a 45-degree chamfer, using a secondary relief tool design, altering the axial depth, and using a tool at least 70% smaller than the tool pocket, you can reduce tool damage and get better results when machining titanium.

By carefully examining the unique properties of titanium and adjusting machining appropriately, you can get the best results for your tool and your finished piece. For more assistance in machining titanium,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
for a custom titanium solution for you.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
There CNC tool and CNC tool Notice the blade that is on Staraag CNC is dark color most like a Titanium one Titanium metal has excellent characteristic to withstand high temperature and most likely bu used in first stage turbine
But titanium is very hard to machine as the article below explained It is almost impossible to machine it using CNC tool
I have no doubt that China can make excellent CNC machine tool But there is only couple of CBC machine tool that can do the job of machining Titanium
Swiss has been dealing with China for a long time even during economic blockade of China 1949- 1974
During WWI they sell 35 mm gun to both the German and the Allied
They have along tradition of fine machinery and Gas Turbine See even the Robot in your video is manufacturer by ABB (Acker, Brown Boveri). Brown Boveri is well known name in Gas turbine and automatic machinery
View attachment 52618



WHY IS MACHINING TITANIUM DIFFICULT?
Why-Is-Machining-Titanium-Difficult-Image.jpg

Titanium and its alloys are increasingly seeing widespread use in aerospace and biomedical applications that take advantage of its unique properties. However, machining titanium also presents unique challenges that precision engineers accustomed to machining other metals will find difficult. Here we look at why machining titanium is so difficult and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
you can use to get the best results when machining titanium.

WHY TITANIUM IS SO POPULAR
While aluminum and aluminum alloys were previously the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
y, newer aircraft designs are increasingly making use of titanium and titanium alloys. These materials are also used in the biomedical industry. The reasons for their popularity include light weight, high strength, excellent fatigue performance and high resistance to aggressive environments, remaining free of rust and degeneration. Titanium parts last longer and provide better performance and results than other metals and materials.

precision-machining-titanium--300x200.jpg


WHY TITANIUM IS SO DIFFICULT TO MACHINE

The very properties that make titanium such a beneficial and high-performance metal are also the properties that can make it difficult to machine. Just as when using aluminum and aluminum alloys, up to 90% of the material may need to be milled and turned away to produce the final part.

Titanium alloys have a low Young’s modulus, which causes spring back and chatter during machining. This can create poor surface quality in the finished product.

Because of titanium’s high work hardening tendency and the stickiness of the alloy, long continuous chips are formed during turning and drilling, which can entangle the tool and impede function. This almost eliminates the possibility of automating titanium machining.

Despite these setbacks, there are techniques that make machining titanium easier.


HOW TO MACHINE TITANIUM
Machining titanium requires coated carbide tools that will resist the stickiness of the alloy and break up the long chips. The tool coating also helps to manage the heat produced with machining.

Keeping radial engagement low is important to counteract the effects of heat generation and work hardening tendency. Increasing the number of flutes in the end mills can help to counteract the lower feed per tooth to increase productivity.

Application of high pressure coolant helps to reduce heat and damage to the tool. Currently, ultrasonic assisted machining is in R&D. The goal is to reduce the contact time of the tool, and prolong tool life.

The technique used when machining titanium can also help to improve results. By using ‘climb milling’, arcing in, ending on a 45-degree chamfer, using a secondary relief tool design, altering the axial depth, and using a tool at least 70% smaller than the tool pocket, you can reduce tool damage and get better results when machining titanium.

By carefully examining the unique properties of titanium and adjusting machining appropriately, you can get the best results for your tool and your finished piece. For more assistance in machining titanium,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
for a custom titanium solution for you.
You are talking about the "blade" or cutting head of the CNC, right? If we go to every bit of a CNC machine, then nobody in the world is independent from anybody including Swissland, Japan or Germany. Back in 2013 China exported couple of CNCs (big ones) to Germany.

The CCTV documentary was about the control system and the mechanical design that can reach the precision of the top line CNC, it did not say whether the blade or every bolt is made in China. It only showed something soft (cutting the human face figure, and mirror surface) to demonstrate its precision, but NOT showing cutting titanium does NOT equal to CAN NOT cut titanium. Yes, there is no prove that China makes titanium cutting blade, nor is there evidence that the blade was made somewhere else, so it is a pointless subject.
 
Last edited:
Yesterday at 1:59 AM
Saturday at 7:00 PM
now
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JUST IN: The Long March-11 carrier rocket, carrying two experimental technology satellites and five commercial satellites, successfully launched from the Yellow Sea at 12:06 pm on Wed local time, marking the first sea-based space launch in China
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and
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Lancé le 5 Juin par une CZ-11H depuis un semi-submersible positionné en mer Jaune, le satellite Jilin-1-03A a renvoyé au sol ses premiers clichés aujourd'hui, pris au-dessus de Los Angeles. Il pèse < 40kg, et dispose de caméras d'une résolution < 1,1m pour une fauchée > 18km.
Translated from French by
Launched on June 5 by a CZ-11H from a semi-submersible positioned in the Yellow Sea, the Jilin-1-03A satellite returned to the ground its first shots today, taken over Los Angeles. He weighs < 40kg, and has cameras of a resolution < 1.1m for a mowed > 18km.
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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
I am currently in the process of attempting to convince two Chinese visiting scholars to stay with me. And I'm losing incentives to convince them.

I say to them "stay in my lab and publish in high impact journals and get a chance to get your own lab in another 5-6 years if you are lucky (well, I said "if you are lucky" part in my head...).

Then one of them pulled out an offer letter from a major Chinese university. And it includes a position of associate professor with US$ 3 million initial startup funding, a full list of advanced equipment waiting to be used, a moving compensation including close a US$ 200,000 to help him buy a new house. I said "wow". That was it. What else could I say? The situation for scientists in the US is getting pathetic, simply put...
Sorry to dredge this up from the distant past, but I just had to say I'm elated that you failed. May you meet nothing but abject failure every time you try to convince a Chinese scholar or student to stay in the US.
 
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