Minsk and Kiev
- Thread starter PLABUDDY
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I'd like to replace the Kilo by 2 or 3 SSNs
the tactic of Subs in a CBG is ro run in front, wait and listen to detect enemys when the CBG pass and run in front again. The subs sweep (wipe?) the front of CBGs way clean.
2 or 3 SSNs could alternately take turns with the other subs.
Convent. subs don't are speedy enough to run in front of a full speed operating CBG.
The number of ships you told ar minim.; I would prefere if a CBG could add more ot these ships.
the tactic of Subs in a CBG is ro run in front, wait and listen to detect enemys when the CBG pass and run in front again. The subs sweep (wipe?) the front of CBGs way clean.
2 or 3 SSNs could alternately take turns with the other subs.
Convent. subs don't are speedy enough to run in front of a full speed operating CBG.
The number of ships you told ar minim.; I would prefere if a CBG could add more ot these ships.
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the Kiews could be great platform cruisers to escort Convois like a CBG or to controll the landing aerea of amphibious operations by seaside;MIGleader said:
if the plan install new engines and weapons - may be replace some by modern systems like the 3M-80E Moskit (NATO codename: SS-N-22 Sunburn) - they will have a big combination of anti ship, anti air and anti sub capacity including sub hunting helos - they dont need air wings to do this job
I also don't agree about
the PLAN amphibious fleet (including future LPDs) are useless without air capacity, whenever the enemy use ground attack planes and attack helos - the ships of the amphibious fleet would be sitting ducks;MIGleader said:
in this time - out of home waters - the PLAN also need (urgent!) ground attack and additional transport capacity, which could only be spend by amphibious carriers (transporting light aircrafts like
- the advanced lead-in trainer (LIFT) L-15, which can carry various air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons to serve for lightweight attack role with little, if any, modification.
- or the JL-9 Mountain Eagle
- ground attack helos and
- a number of transport helos;
but this would be another thread
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MIGleader
Banned Idiot
im still convinced the misnk an d kiev would do better as scrap metal than as operatinonal ships. they were sold under the conditins they would not be used for military purposes, and its not worth breaking the contract for two junk ships. why use a 30 year old platform when u can build a new, stealthy, and sdvanced sensor ship of your own?
MIGleader
Banned Idiot
PLABUDDY said:
so china will be operating russian junk. they are old!!! they follow a soviet model of a ship holding many missles. besides, a refit would cost money, time, and workers. china needs to concentrate on building a new generation of stealthy, andvanced destroyers to counter DDX. 30 yeear old russian crap simply wont cut it.
yea, this cruisers carrie a various number of helos for long range sub detecting and hunting ..... :rofl:
they are modern battleships to fight a war concept of the early WW II with modern weapons,
no doubt - they ar powerfull in a ship to ship fight,
but they ar ununsable to escort convois or cbgs
The concept of ship to ship battles is outdated; it is - may be - the sowjet and russian concept of sea war; sitting in the harbour and starting attack rides to impede the enemy sea ways (like the "Bismarck" and "Tirpiz"); it is a contintal, ground based and land-war focussed concept which have no idea about sea power and mobile sea war.
What does the PLAN need?
As I know, arround the half of chinese petrol comsume is importet, most of them by sea way and most of the chinese sources ar in africa. So they need war ships to escort trading ships like tankers at the trade routes between africa and chinese controlled harbours in asia, long range ships and additional helo carriers to control big aereas around the trade routes,
to controll the sea, the sky, and the deep.
A mixed armament - and in modern sea war a big number of helos - ar needed.
Now you can spend a lot of money by a lot of different ships, destroyers, frigates, carriers, to create escort groups - or you may use a helo carriing cruiser like the Kiew-Class to do the same job in combination with a small number of escort ships,
and a sea controll helo cruiser like the kiew (including modern wepons) is much better to do this job than the slava class.
Only to compare:
Kiew-Class:
Displacement: 42,000 tons full load
Dimensions: 818.5 x 107.2 x 31 feet/249.5 x 32.7 x 9.5 meters
Extreme Dimensions: 895.5 x 174 x 39 feet/273 x 53 x 11.8 meters
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 8 boilers, 4 shafts, 200,000 hp, 32 knots (could be changed)
Crew: 1600 total
Armor: unknown, probably little or none
Armament: 8 SS-N-12 Sandbox SSM, 2 SA-N-3 Goblet SAM, 2 SA-N-4 Gecko SAM (except in Novorossiysk), 2 dual 76.2mm/50 cal DP gun, 8 30 mm gatling AA, 2 quint 533 mm TT, 1 dual SUW-N-1 ASW rocket launcher, 2 RBU-6000 ASW rocket launchers (could be modernized)
Aircraft: 31 Helos
Slava Class:
Displacement: 11,500 tons full load
Dimensions: 186 x 20.8 x 9.3 meters/610.2 x 68.2 x 30.5 feet
Propulsion: COGOG: 2 M70 cruise gas turbines, 20,000 shp, plus 2 exhaust gas boilers, 2 cruise steam turbines; 4 M8KF boost gas turbines, 4 shafts, 110,000 shp, 30 knots
Crew: 454 + 51 flag
Radar: MR-800 Voshkod/Top Pair 3-D long range air search, MR-700 Fregat/Top Steer (first two) or MR-710 Fregat-MA/Top Plate (second two) 3-D air search
Sonar: MG-332 Tigan-2T/Bull Nose hull mounted LF, Platina/Horse Tail MF VDS
Fire Control: Volna/Top Dome SA-N-6 SAM control, MPZ-301 Baza/Pop Group SA-N-4 SAM control, Argument/Front Door-C SSM control
EW: Kol'cho suite with Gurzhor-A&B/Side Globe intercept, MR-404/Rum Tub jammers, Bell Crown intercept, Bell Push intercept 2 PK-2 decoy RL, 12 PK-10 decoy RL in last two units only
Armament: 16 P-500/SS-N-12 Bazalt/Sandbox SSM, 8 B-303A VLS systems (64 S-300MPU/SA-N-6 Fort/Grumble SAM), 2 Osa-MA SAM systems (40 4K-33/SA-N-4 Gecko SAM), 1 dual 130mm/70cal DP, 6 30 mm AA, 10 21 inch torpedo tubes, 2 RBU-6000 ASW RL
Aviation: Aft helicopter deck and hangar for 1 Ka-25/26/27 series helicopter (carriing 1 torpedoe) only
Gollevainen posted this edict;
This thread is closed
they are modern battleships to fight a war concept of the early WW II with modern weapons,
no doubt - they ar powerfull in a ship to ship fight,
but they ar ununsable to escort convois or cbgs
The concept of ship to ship battles is outdated; it is - may be - the sowjet and russian concept of sea war; sitting in the harbour and starting attack rides to impede the enemy sea ways (like the "Bismarck" and "Tirpiz"); it is a contintal, ground based and land-war focussed concept which have no idea about sea power and mobile sea war.
What does the PLAN need?
As I know, arround the half of chinese petrol comsume is importet, most of them by sea way and most of the chinese sources ar in africa. So they need war ships to escort trading ships like tankers at the trade routes between africa and chinese controlled harbours in asia, long range ships and additional helo carriers to control big aereas around the trade routes,
to controll the sea, the sky, and the deep.
A mixed armament - and in modern sea war a big number of helos - ar needed.
Now you can spend a lot of money by a lot of different ships, destroyers, frigates, carriers, to create escort groups - or you may use a helo carriing cruiser like the Kiew-Class to do the same job in combination with a small number of escort ships,
and a sea controll helo cruiser like the kiew (including modern wepons) is much better to do this job than the slava class.
Only to compare:
Kiew-Class:
Displacement: 42,000 tons full load
Dimensions: 818.5 x 107.2 x 31 feet/249.5 x 32.7 x 9.5 meters
Extreme Dimensions: 895.5 x 174 x 39 feet/273 x 53 x 11.8 meters
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 8 boilers, 4 shafts, 200,000 hp, 32 knots (could be changed)
Crew: 1600 total
Armor: unknown, probably little or none
Armament: 8 SS-N-12 Sandbox SSM, 2 SA-N-3 Goblet SAM, 2 SA-N-4 Gecko SAM (except in Novorossiysk), 2 dual 76.2mm/50 cal DP gun, 8 30 mm gatling AA, 2 quint 533 mm TT, 1 dual SUW-N-1 ASW rocket launcher, 2 RBU-6000 ASW rocket launchers (could be modernized)
Aircraft: 31 Helos
Slava Class:
Displacement: 11,500 tons full load
Dimensions: 186 x 20.8 x 9.3 meters/610.2 x 68.2 x 30.5 feet
Propulsion: COGOG: 2 M70 cruise gas turbines, 20,000 shp, plus 2 exhaust gas boilers, 2 cruise steam turbines; 4 M8KF boost gas turbines, 4 shafts, 110,000 shp, 30 knots
Crew: 454 + 51 flag
Radar: MR-800 Voshkod/Top Pair 3-D long range air search, MR-700 Fregat/Top Steer (first two) or MR-710 Fregat-MA/Top Plate (second two) 3-D air search
Sonar: MG-332 Tigan-2T/Bull Nose hull mounted LF, Platina/Horse Tail MF VDS
Fire Control: Volna/Top Dome SA-N-6 SAM control, MPZ-301 Baza/Pop Group SA-N-4 SAM control, Argument/Front Door-C SSM control
EW: Kol'cho suite with Gurzhor-A&B/Side Globe intercept, MR-404/Rum Tub jammers, Bell Crown intercept, Bell Push intercept 2 PK-2 decoy RL, 12 PK-10 decoy RL in last two units only
Armament: 16 P-500/SS-N-12 Bazalt/Sandbox SSM, 8 B-303A VLS systems (64 S-300MPU/SA-N-6 Fort/Grumble SAM), 2 Osa-MA SAM systems (40 4K-33/SA-N-4 Gecko SAM), 1 dual 130mm/70cal DP, 6 30 mm AA, 10 21 inch torpedo tubes, 2 RBU-6000 ASW RL
Aviation: Aft helicopter deck and hangar for 1 Ka-25/26/27 series helicopter (carriing 1 torpedoe) only
Gollevainen posted this edict;
This thread is closed
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