Littoral Combat Ships (LCS)


now I add one more thing I forgot to mention
Yesterday at 10:51 PM
Today at 1:14 PM


but later noticed in Internet several analyses/"analyses" emerged, so without reading them now, I'll just repeat the politically-correct points from the Facebook discussion with 'dtulsa' here (LOL thanks man):

first of all
"The U.S. Navy's requirement is for 52 small-surface combatants, the bulk of which will be LCS." (the quotes here come from either article I linked above Today at 1:14 PM)
which means they'll keep building the LCS PORK Jul 1, 2017

also most important:
"We want this to be part of the high/low mix."
the first time I've heard this from USN (until now everything, including dysfunctional LCSs, was "front end")

then, there's a puzzling radar part:
"So on this ship we are looking at something more like a three-by-three, so four six-foot-by-six foot arrays."

[one of the requirements]: Enterprise Air Surveillance Radar (EASR) 3 face fixed array (3x3x3
Radar Modular Assembly)

why puzzling? because "Concepts of employment for this type of ship will include integrated operations with area air defense capable destroyers and cruisers as well as independent operations while connected and contributing to the fleet tactical grid."

it's related to the really vague part
Self Defense Launcher Capability


finally the USN appears to have dropped the nonsensical 'saving over the lifetime by reduced manning' claim:
"200 personnel crew max" between "Key FFG(X) Threshold Attributes"
but who knows

finally the USN appears to have dropped the excessive speed (good just for fanbois) requirement:
"28 kts at 80% MCR" between "Key FFG(X) Threshold Attributes"

the range should enable to sail between Hawaii and California without refueling, something an LCS couldn't Apr 29, 2015
which is in the proposal Yesterday at 1:14 PM the USN also dropped the Mission Modules ('modularity') boondoggle
it'll be interesting to see how much money they'll throw now into Mission Packages for the planned 32 LCSs ... tragicomic

now just links to the related articles I've read so far, ordered LOL from more to less critical (if you want to spend even more time, there's a discussion below the articles ...):

Frigate RFI
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In a Blow to LCS, the US Navy Finally Admits it Needs a Real Frigate
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FFG(X): Quo Vadis
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Today at 8:47 PM
...

now just links to the related articles I've read so far, ordered LOL from more to less critical ...
and here's the most positive I read (I guess anything more optimistic would be just wishful thinking):
The US Navy wants the new frigate to be a much more capable ship than current LCS
Posted on July 12, 2017
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The U.S. Navy will be looking at multiple existing ship designs for its new frigate instead of focusing on simply up-gunning the troubled littoral combat ships, the service’s request for information has revealed.

Published on July 10, 2017, the RFI outlines what the U.S. Navy wants the future Guided Missile Frigate (FFG(X)), as the frigate is now officially called, to be capable of.

The FFG(X) design is expected to draw on existing parent designs adapted to navy capability requirements. Unlike the LCS, the frigates should be able to integrate into carrier strike groups and large surface combatant led surface action groups but also be able to defend itself during independent operations.

The navy is also expecting the frigate to assume some of the duties of large surface combatants like the over-tasked Arleigh Burke-class destroyers during “operations other than war”. These operations include presence missions, security cooperation activities and humanitarian assistance and disaster relief (HA/DR) efforts among other.

The U.S. Navy wants the frigate to have a 25 year service life and a grade A shock hardening for propulsion, critical systems, and combat system elements to retain full air defense and propulsion capabilities.

Major warfare systems that the U.S. Navy would like to have on the frigate include an Aegis-derivative COMBATSS-21 combat management system, a C4I suite, an Enterprise Air Surveillance Radar (EASR), Mk53 Decoy Launching System (Nulka), a SeaRAM Mk15 Mod 31 in addition to a UAV and an MH-60R helicopter.

What the navy is particularly interested in is the ship’s vertical launch cell potential to support Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile Block 2 and/or Standard Missile-2 Active missiles. The navy wants a description of launcher type and cell quantities the proposed design could accommodate.

A Detail Design and Construction contract is expected to be awarded in FY2020. The navy wants to buy one ship in 2020 and 2021 followed by two ships per year from 2022.
now to kinda summarize: for me the most bewildering was the
Enterprise Air Surveillance Radar
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requirement, so I'll wait to see what
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will actually guide
 

dtulsa

Junior Member
But noted as option curiously... so remains possible ...
I like it sounds like the navy is finally getting serious one it mentioned was a tier 1 and 2 I tend to think they may delegate LCS solely to the tier 2 with FFGX delegated to tier 1 type jobs LCS could in theory I guess concentrate on anti sub work though it's short range is a hindrance
 

dtulsa

Junior Member
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read the deadline for proposals is August 24 if it is then that's moving at light speed for the navy and government for that matter and I tend to think that's is already a very tight window for designs although I guess most are already known ie.LCS derived Legend Fremm etc. So we have a very quick decision on these ships also that a decision if not already made is close to being made and it's just a formality as was the FF in 2014
 

dtulsa

Junior Member
Today at 8:47 PM

and here's the most positive I read (I guess anything more optimistic would be just wishful thinking):
The US Navy wants the new frigate to be a much more capable ship than current LCS
Posted on6 July 12, 2017
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now to kinda summarize: for me the most bewildering was the
Enterprise Air Surveillance Radar
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requirement, so I'll wait to see what
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will actually guide
Agreed and expensive was looking at the pdf it's is also impressive and most cuts LCS out of the running especially in it's current form not enough power to run it in the current LCS vessels not really sure what would maybe some could help in that reguard
 

dtulsa

Junior Member
Ok Jeff take a look at the proposal of Legend called 4923 it reads exactly like the RFI dictates the crew size missile VLS 16 cell mk 41 towed and bow sonar growth for power ie.radar range 6000 miles 57 or 76 mmgun helicopter or uav SeaRam and torpedo tubes plus RHIB up to 7 meter not saying anything just read it please then comment if ya want too only question is a biggy How much does it Cost!!!! One last it's speed is 28 knots HII states it can be changed to go 30 but they decided not to and of course I forgot to mention the 8 ASHM in canisters
 
Last edited:

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Ok Jeff take a look at the proposal of Legend called 4923 it reads exactly like the RFI dictates the crew size missile VLS 16 cell mk 41 towed and bow sonar growth for power ie.radar range 6000 miles 57 or 76 mmgun helicopter or uav SeaRam and torpedo tubes plus RHIB up to 7 meter not saying anything just read it please then comment if ya want too only question is a biggy How much does it Cost!!!! One last it's speed is 28 knots HII states it can be changed to go 30 but they decided not to and of course I forgot to mention the 8 ASHM in canisters
What is needed by USN
 
Ok Jeff take a look at the proposal of Legend called 4923
LOL man I'll answer here, I know you've showed me that article in Facebook recently, I think I was looking at Bhutan borders instead :) whatever, I'll repost it below, after this:

if I were you, I would be careful, it's a fanboish source plus these days (almost) anybody can dream up this stuff and create a CG in coupla hours (LOL and the article doesn't contain even that)


it reads exactly like the RFI dictates ...
exactly?! don't worry, I don't mean to fight over words, but ... I think you said you had read the RFI:
it requires Enterprise Air Surveillance Radar (EASR) 3 face fixed array (3x3x3
Radar Modular Assembly)
but
"the HII FF4923 ... would include a 3D rotating phased array radar ..." right below:
Huntington Ingalls Has a New Frigate that Could Give the U.S. Navy Some Impressive Capabilities
January 11, 2017
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While the U.S. Navy has opted to press forward with plans to develop its Littoral Combat Ships into frigates, the service has other options to choose from if the decision is revisited during the Trump administration. One such design was on prominent display at the Huntington Ingalls Industries booth at the Surface Navy Association conference in Crystal City, Virginia, next to the Pentagon.

The proposed HII design—called the FF4923, which is based on the U.S. Coast Guard’s
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, would be a long-endurance patrol frigate that could potentially offer greater combat capabilities as well as range and endurance for a lower price. Company officials told me that they are building nine NSC vessels for the Coast Guard and a Navy variant would be a relatively quick conversion.

The proposed HII frigate—which the company is primarily gearing toward the export market—is a 4,675 metric ton design that is 418-feet long and a beam of 54-feet. The vessel would have a crew size of 121 sailors and would have a range of more than 8,000 nautical miles or more than 60 days. Power would come from a pair of 9,655shp diesels and 30,565shp gas turbine—giving the ship a top speed of just above 28 knots. HII says it could increase the speed to more than 30 knots, but suggested that an incrementally greater sprint speed is not worth the additional cost—especially for the patrol mission.

In terms of sensors and weapons, the HII FF4923 would be well furnished. It would include a 3D rotating phased array radar, an EO/IR sensor, passive ECM, hull-mounted sonar and towed-array or variable depth sonar. It would be armed with a Mk-41 vertical launch system with 16 cells capable of carrying the Standard SM-2 and RIM-162 Evolved SeaSparrow Missile. It would also be equipped with ASROC anti-submarine rockets, eight Harpoon anti-ship missiles, a single triple torpedo launcher and a 76mm gun. HII officials said that their frigate design could be a directly replacement for the now retired Oliver Hazard Perry-class guided-missile frigate that was mainstay of the Navy’s fleet for decades.

For ship self-defense, the FF4923 would be equipped with the Raytheon
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close in defense systems as well as two remotely controlled and four manually operated .50 caliber machine guns. It would also be equipped with anti-missile and anti-torpedo defenses. In addition to the ship’s own capabilities, the FF4923 would have the ability to carry a MH-60R Seahawk helicopter and two unmanned aerial vehicles. It would also be able to launch and recover a 7m rigid-hull inflatable boat.

Altogether, the FF4923 is a formidable design—which will see service in a foreign navy if not our own. HII officials said that the design is affordable mostly because the Coast Guard design had so much additional unused space, weight and power available. Perhaps, with any luck, HII might be able to persuade the U.S. Navy to buy a few.
 

dtulsa

Junior Member
LOL man I'll answer here, I know you've showed me that article in Facebook recently, I think I was looking at Bhutan borders instead :) whatever, I'll repost it below, after this:

if I were you, I would be careful, it's a fanboish source plus these days (almost) anybody can dream up this stuff and create a CG in coupla hours (LOL and the article doesn't contain even that)



exactly?! don't worry, I don't mean to fight over words, but ... I think you said you had read the RFI:
it requires Enterprise Air Surveillance Radar (EASR) 3 face fixed array (3x3x3
Radar Modular Assembly)
but
"the HII FF4923 ... would include a 3D rotating phased array radar ..." right below:
Huntington Ingalls Has a New Frigate that Could Give the U.S. Navy Some Impressive Capabilities
January 11, 2017
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Sure the 4923 prop came out like a year or so ago they couldn't have known what,the RFI would be held a year ago we all thought the navy was content with an up gunned LCS but honestly I don't care what they choose just as long as it can function as it's supposed too which is something LCS has Never done
 

Jeff Head

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Ok Jeff take a look at the proposal of Legend called 4923 it reads exactly like the RFI dictates the crew size missile VLS 16 cell mk 41 towed and bow sonar growth for power ie.radar range 6000 miles 57 or 76 mmgun helicopter or uav SeaRam and torpedo tubes plus RHIB up to 7 meter not saying anything just read it please then comment if ya want too only question is a biggy How much does it Cost!!!! One last it's speed is 28 knots HII states it can be changed to go 30 but they decided not to and of course I forgot to mention the 8 ASHM in canisters
The full up frigate version of theLEgend hull would be a great friagte for the US Navy.

But the full up friagte versions of the Freedom and Independence would too.

We just have to decide which one we are going to build and then do it.

Any one of those three will keep US jobs going on lines that are already hot and would require far less to work up than an entirely new design.

I like any of those three built up to the full frigate specs. I think personally that for me, the Freedom and the Legend hulls have the best shot.

Time will tell...just arm them appropriately, give them the right sensor suite, and then ensure that they are built strong enough to be up to combat standards...and for me that almost demands that it not be any kind of an aluminum ship.
 

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