Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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AndrewS

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It's not a statement. It is a provocation exercise. The provocation is to analyze if really all the countries in the region or most of them will adopt neutrality between a war between the USA and China, I can accept the optimistic version that there will be neutrality, but I do not share this optimism because I see clear intentions and directions that this may not really be true.

Latest from ASEAN below

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-25/china-hustles-on-summit-sidelines-to-challenge-us-trade-deals
archive.ph/Nzosw#selection-3427.35-3431.83

Key points relating to Indonesia:
1. The Indonesian President can publicly call the Chinese President "Big Brother" with no/little blowback from the Indonesian public or the opposition party
2. If Indonesia was to join the US in declaring war on China (as you suggest), presumably that new and expensive railway linking Jarkata would fall into disrepair due to lack of spares

You can't be any clearer than this, so what does this tell you?
 

Chilled_k6

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this showed up on the Ukraine thread and is quite interesting.
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If something like this was agreed to between China and Russia, the implication is quite far reaching. At a minimum, I would imagine that Russia (and North Korea) would allow Chinese aircraft to operate out of Russian air bases in the far east. Other possibilities would be allowing DF-26 or DF-17 brigades to operate out of Siberia so they can attack air fields in Alaska. And maybe set up and share early warning radar data with the Russians. Other possibilities of being able to use military base In Russia far east is that they'd be able to station surface ships and nuclear submarines in Sea of Okhotsk and operate with Russian Far East Fleet. That would allow them to have air protection for their fleet.

Just generally speaking, they will be able to keep up attacks on Japanese air fields if they can operate out of Russian and NK air fields.
GLONASS ground stations are being build in China, and vice versa for Beidou. This would give Beidou better coverage near the Arctic.

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Note that one station is build on the Kamchatka Peninsula opposite of Alaska, and could have strong maritime and military implications. In general, GLONASS can serve as a backup in case a large number of Beidou satellites become offline in a conflict, and GPS gets completely cut for civilian use.
 

Sinnavuuty

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Latest from ASEAN below

bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-25/china-hustles-on-summit-sidelines-to-challenge-us-trade-deals
archive.ph/Nzosw#selection-3427.35-3431.83

Key points relating to Indonesia:
1. The Indonesian President can publicly call the Chinese President "Big Brother" with no/little blowback from the Indonesian public or the opposition party
2. If Indonesia was to join the US in declaring war on China (as you suggest), presumably that new and expensive railway linking Jarkata would fall into disrepair due to lack of spares

You can't be any clearer than this, so what does this tell you?
Of course can. This says a lot more:
Good to see China and Indonesia resuming joint military exercises. Signs of warming ties all around. This is after meeting between Xi and Indonesian president
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AndrewS

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The red line: Biden and Xi’s secret Ukraine talks revealed

spectator.co.uk/article/the-red-line-biden-and-xis-secret-ukraine-talks-revealed/



Red-LIne_SE_FORF1.jpg

Since the beginning of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, China has played a decisive – though publicly low-profile – role in strategic decision-making in both Washington and Moscow. As I report for the first time in my new book Overreach, it was a back-channel intervention approved by Beijing that caused the US to scupper a deal for the Poles to provide Soviet-made MiG-29 jets to the Ukrainian Air Force back in March. And since September a flurry of personal diplomacy by Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi with Nato and the US has led to a rare moment of public agreement over Russia, when Xi Jinping said that the world ‘needs to prevent a nuclear crisis on the Eurasian continent’ in a meeting with Joe Biden at the G20 summit in Bali.

Throughout the war, China’s true position on the Russia-Ukraine conflict has been hard to pin down – not least because Beijing has been telling both sides what they want to hear. In March, Wang implicitly appeared to be blaming the US for ‘stoking tensions’ and ‘sowing discord’ with Russia. Last month he told his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, that ‘China will also firmly support the Russian side, under the leadership of President Putin, to unite and lead the Russian people’, according to state broadcaster CCTV. Wang also promised that ‘China is willing to deepen contacts with the Russian side at all levels’. Yet in September, on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly, Wang had told Nato Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg that China ‘stays open-minded to dialogues and exchanges with Nato and is willing to jointly promote the sound and steady development of bilateral relations … in the spirit of honesty and mutual respect’.

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What changed Washington’s mind? In part, it was an urgent and confidential back-channel initiative led by the UK-based Institute for East West Strategic Studies involving former European leaders and senior officials, and ultimately endorsed by the Chinese leadership. Ever since Putin’s 27 February declaration on nuclear readiness, the PLA had also been reaching out through military-to-military (as opposed to diplomatic or political) channels to senior Russian general officers with whom they had made personal contact over years of joint military exercises and military procurement talks. Beijing’s aim was to ensure that even if there were a political decision to use nukes, the Russian army would insist on sticking to its long-standing nuclear military doctrine to use them solely if provoked by attacks on Russian soil. Through these unofficial ‘track two’ contacts, Washington and the PLA agreed – unusually, given a deterioration in relations during the Donald Trump presidency – that if the US stopped the MiG deal, Beijing’s generals would do their best to defuse Putin’s nuclear threat on an operational level. ‘It worked,’ said the Chinese source. ‘The [US] decided that supplying aircraft was a step too far.’

Though this back-channel initiative of early March has not been previously reported, the fact that the US retained a fundamentally cautious attitude to supplying strategic weapons to Ukraine throughout the war effectively confirms that Washington, remained deeply aware of Chinese concerns, which were shared with many of the largest nations in the European Union. Despite a dramatic escalation in supplies of money and military hardware – including Nato-standard 155mm artillery capable of firing guided shells and the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System – Nato has held back on providing attack aircraft, helicopters, Nato-standard tanks, long-range battlefield missile and cruise missile systems.

At the same time, Chinese backing for Moscow remained equally cautious. Beijing offered diplomatic and informational support – but excluded significant military cooperation, forcing the Russians to buy drones from Iran, cannibalise domestic appliances for computer chips and attempt to buy back helicopters, missiles and missile defence systems from its military customers around the developing world. The threat of US sanctions on their global operations caused many leading Chinese banks such as ICBC, the New Development Bank and the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank to withdraw credit and financing from Russia. Chinese energy giants such as Sinochem also suspended all Russian investments and joint ventures. In August, UnionPay – the Chinese equivalent of Visa and Mastercard – also ceased its cooperation with Russian banks, citing sanctions. The material motivation for Beijing’s corporations to pull out of Russia was clear: before the war China did $100 billion in trade with Russia (rising by a projected $30 billion this year thanks to increased oil imports) but more than $1.5 trillion with the US and EU.

With Biden and Xi’s joint condemnation of the threat of nukes at Bali earlier this month, the so-called ‘track two’ understandings of March have become a ‘track one’ public policy. Thanks to Wang’s shuttle diplomacy, Nato and China have effectively aligned on not escalating the Ukraine-Russia conflict, according to the Chinese source. Over a series of meetings with Nato leadership since early September, Wang pledged to use China’s considerable leverage in Moscow to dissuade Putin from using nukes, while in return Nato has affirmed that they would not provide strategic weapons to Ukraine.
 
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tphuang

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I literally posted that article just 3 posts above!

Seriously though. Let's discuss the importance of China/Russia tie in this context. Given that China only has mutual defense treaty with North Korea that we know about, establishing one with Russia is a pretty big step. If this does exist, then Russia at minimum will have to help china in some ways in a possible Taiwan conflict, even if they don't contribute militarily.
 

Biscuits

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I literally posted that article just 3 posts above!

Seriously though. Let's discuss the importance of China/Russia tie in this context. Given that China only has mutual defense treaty with North Korea that we know about, establishing one with Russia is a pretty big step. If this does exist, then Russia at minimum will have to help china in some ways in a possible Taiwan conflict, even if they don't contribute militarily.
Imo Russia is way more beholden to China than what most people think.

It started during the fall of USSR, but the ties were likely boosted either by Putin himself or major power holders which Putin can't get rid of.

The fact is, Chinese influence in Russia has reached the level where Russia can be mobilized to 1. Willingly cut all the ties with the west and 2. Send troops to aid China's long term strategic vision without receiving direct major compensation for it. That shows a very deep level of influence, possibly on par with the influenced US has over EU.

Officially adopting mutual defense is not always a good idea. China is unambiguous on NK because NK is small and needs protection. Adopting it with Russia would only reduce the flexibility of Chinese armed response.

If China is attacked, it doesn't always want to instantly call Russia fully into the conflict.

The starting role of Russia during an American invasion scenario will probably ironically be similar to what NATO is doing in Ukraine. Neutral Russian platforms (perhaps some in reality PLA donated and operated) will fly and sail around US/Japan forces and provide additional ISR for China.

If USA wants to get rid of these spotters, they would need to fire the first shot at the Russians, who are officially neutral. But if they don't, they will get spotted for PLA forces to wipe them out.

It's a bad dilemma, adding to the already huge difficulties for America to mount an offensive special operation in China's home territory. And it is a card which China can play precisely because it doesn't have an official mutual defense treaty with Russia.
 

gelgoog

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Relations had already improved even before the fall of the Soviet Union. Negotiations on the sale of the Su-27 started in 1988. First aircraft were delivered before its collapse.

What made the Russians more eager to further improve relations I think was the Baltic states joining NATO. I posted a link to Biden in a talk in the Atlantic Council about his conversations with the Russian government delegation with regard to this some time back.

The Russians were already in a bad mood after the NATO intervention in Yugoslavia, which they saw as a template for what the US might try to do to them, in fact that is where the whole color revolution and US led military intervention was applied in a big way for the first time. But the Baltics joining NATO was the last straw I think. This was all before Putin was in power.

 

caohailiang

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I literally posted that article just 3 posts above!

Seriously though. Let's discuss the importance of China/Russia tie in this context. Given that China only has mutual defense treaty with North Korea that we know about, establishing one with Russia is a pretty big step. If this does exist, then Russia at minimum will have to help china in some ways in a possible Taiwan conflict, even if they don't contribute militarily.
iirc, i think this is kind of similar to Bismarck’s reassurence treaty with Russia, in which he guarenteed Russia's safty if Austria is to start a war proactively with Russia, but does not cover the scenario where Russia start a war first. The treaty is at the center of Bismark's strategy to keep the holy alliance (German, Russia & Austria) together in spite of tension between Russia and Austria over the Balkans.

i think China is walking a thin line here. She guarentee Russia's safety, making sure Putin does not collaps and Russian continue to be friendly. Meanwhile, she avoid confronting European powers by not supporting Russia directly with arms sale, at the same time seducing France/Germany with economic benefit, the goal is to cultivate the possibility of Europe staying neutral in the coming sino-us conflict.

As to whether Russia will support China in some way in TW scenario, i cannot see how Russia can support materially in significant way.
Maybe allowing bomber passage? if the target is Japan, is it necessary to fly through Russia air space? if the target is CONUS, i dont know.

in short, i see this alleged security guarentee more like China providing it, rather than receiving it
 
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tphuang

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I think @gelgoog is right. China and Soviet relationship was definitely recovering during the mid to late 80s. Since Soviet collapse, America has been pushing against Russian interests because it viewed Russia as weak. Outside of a few medevev years when the china taking over fat east theory was getting pushed really hard, the two countries are basically natural partners. And if you go to any school in north America, you would see the Chinese and Russian kids are always hanging out together. So cultural differences aren't as large as people make it out to be. And now, I think Russian elites pretty much hate America and UK at least. Maybe they are more partial to German and French, but they would nothing less to take revenge on America if they could.

Back to the original topic, I think it's a mistake to think that Russians can't help china. As I said, Russia has vast underpopulated areas of far east with airports. Just having Russia willing to share isr data, allow Chinese aircraft to land and protecting those air bases would be a huge help in any kind of persistent offensive against north part of Japan and Alaska. Allowing ballistic missiles brigades to operate from Russian far east would be devastating for certain air bases that are hard to reach from northern china. Having Russian nuclear submarine fleet operate with Chinese ones in ocean area north of Japan would allow them to enhance each other's survivability. I wonder if china and Russia would work on populating water around Russia with those underwater sensors that china has been installing south china sea. That makes it really hard for nuclear subs.

Also, if the war spreads to certain us allies in Europe. There is also the option attacking UK from western part of Russia via h20 or df17s.

Remember, Russia has a really large land area. It has a really large nuclear fleet and modern air defense system.
 

AndrewS

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On the effects of the Russia-Ukraine mutual defence clause, we can see that China doesn't want to get dragged into the war over Ukraine and is trying to de-escalate Ukraine.

But it's also clear that Russia's core territories are covered from attack by outside parties, which helps deter Ukraine, NATO or the US from attacking Russia proper.

China's current growth rates and long-term growth potential means China can still become far larger than the US and there are still hundreds of millions of poor peasants in China. Wars get in the way of development.

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But from Russia's perspective, would Russia want or support China getting into a war over Taiwan?

If China were to do so, it would take a lot of pressure off Russia.

Economically, Russia has nothing to lose from supporting China as it has already been cut off by Western sanctions. We can see these maximalist sanctions haven't worked against Russia, and now the West has used up all its leverage. The Russian economy is only down 3-4% overall for 2022. For comparison, Ukraine's GDP will have shrunk by 40-45% in 2022. Russia is still posting a trade surplus and accumulating foreign currency reserves that it can't spend fast enough. Even with the proposed oil price cap of $65-70 per barrel, that would be enough for the Russian government to balance its budget, as Bloomberg reports.

From a military perspective, the only way that China could lose a Taiwan war is if both Japan and the US declare war against China, and then starting attacking mainland China proper. But that situation would almost certainly be covered by the mutual defence clause between Russia and China.

This will help deter the US/Japan from getting involved in a shooting war over the unresolved China-Taiwan civil war.
For Japan in particular, it is no longer a case of just going to war against China, but Russia as well.

In terms of what Russia could add, I don't see much additional military benefit to the Russian military being actively involved.

Geographically, Russia's military is too far away and too small to really affect outcomes in the Western Pacific, although Russia can pressure nearby Japan. Russia would still want to keep the bulk of its military in Europe, oriented against NATO. And this is even before much of the Russian military has been depleted during the Ukraine war.

Acting as neutral ISR platforms is likely the best use of Russia's military in the Western Pacific.

That would allow Russia to benefit the most.

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Overall, Russia becoming a junior military ally to China is a huge failure of US policy.

It also represents a monumental shift in China policy, as previously China dismissed the need for military alliances.
 
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