Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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gelgoog

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Russia, for whatever reason, has been giving priority in shipbuilding to the Pacific Fleet as of late. Where before they spread newly built ships between all fleets. They are currently building seven Project 20380/5 corvettes (light frigates really) at Amur shipyard. And all are supposed to go to the Pacific Fleet. They already have four of those in the Pacific Fleet, four in the Baltic Fleet, and are building two for the Black Sea Fleet.
 
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zhangjim

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The red line: Biden and Xi’s secret Ukraine talks revealed

spectator.co.uk/article/the-red-line-biden-and-xis-secret-ukraine-talks-revealed/



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Since the beginning of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, China has played a decisive – though publicly low-profile – role in strategic decision-making in both Washington and Moscow. As I report for the first time in my new book Overreach, it was a back-channel intervention approved by Beijing that caused the US to scupper a deal for the Poles to provide Soviet-made MiG-29 jets to the Ukrainian Air Force back in March. And since September a flurry of personal diplomacy by Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi with Nato and the US has led to a rare moment of public agreement over Russia, when Xi Jinping said that the world ‘needs to prevent a nuclear crisis on the Eurasian continent’ in a meeting with Joe Biden at the G20 summit in Bali.

Throughout the war, China’s true position on the Russia-Ukraine conflict has been hard to pin down – not least because Beijing has been telling both sides what they want to hear. In March, Wang implicitly appeared to be blaming the US for ‘stoking tensions’ and ‘sowing discord’ with Russia. Last month he told his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, that ‘China will also firmly support the Russian side, under the leadership of President Putin, to unite and lead the Russian people’, according to state broadcaster CCTV. Wang also promised that ‘China is willing to deepen contacts with the Russian side at all levels’. Yet in September, on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly, Wang had told Nato Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg that China ‘stays open-minded to dialogues and exchanges with Nato and is willing to jointly promote the sound and steady development of bilateral relations … in the spirit of honesty and mutual respect’.

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What changed Washington’s mind? In part, it was an urgent and confidential back-channel initiative led by the UK-based Institute for East West Strategic Studies involving former European leaders and senior officials, and ultimately endorsed by the Chinese leadership. Ever since Putin’s 27 February declaration on nuclear readiness, the PLA had also been reaching out through military-to-military (as opposed to diplomatic or political) channels to senior Russian general officers with whom they had made personal contact over years of joint military exercises and military procurement talks. Beijing’s aim was to ensure that even if there were a political decision to use nukes, the Russian army would insist on sticking to its long-standing nuclear military doctrine to use them solely if provoked by attacks on Russian soil. Through these unofficial ‘track two’ contacts, Washington and the PLA agreed – unusually, given a deterioration in relations during the Donald Trump presidency – that if the US stopped the MiG deal, Beijing’s generals would do their best to defuse Putin’s nuclear threat on an operational level. ‘It worked,’ said the Chinese source. ‘The [US] decided that supplying aircraft was a step too far.’

Though this back-channel initiative of early March has not been previously reported, the fact that the US retained a fundamentally cautious attitude to supplying strategic weapons to Ukraine throughout the war effectively confirms that Washington, remained deeply aware of Chinese concerns, which were shared with many of the largest nations in the European Union. Despite a dramatic escalation in supplies of money and military hardware – including Nato-standard 155mm artillery capable of firing guided shells and the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System – Nato has held back on providing attack aircraft, helicopters, Nato-standard tanks, long-range battlefield missile and cruise missile systems.

At the same time, Chinese backing for Moscow remained equally cautious. Beijing offered diplomatic and informational support – but excluded significant military cooperation, forcing the Russians to buy drones from Iran, cannibalise domestic appliances for computer chips and attempt to buy back helicopters, missiles and missile defence systems from its military customers around the developing world. The threat of US sanctions on their global operations caused many leading Chinese banks such as ICBC, the New Development Bank and the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank to withdraw credit and financing from Russia. Chinese energy giants such as Sinochem also suspended all Russian investments and joint ventures. In August, UnionPay – the Chinese equivalent of Visa and Mastercard – also ceased its cooperation with Russian banks, citing sanctions. The material motivation for Beijing’s corporations to pull out of Russia was clear: before the war China did $100 billion in trade with Russia (rising by a projected $30 billion this year thanks to increased oil imports) but more than $1.5 trillion with the US and EU.

With Biden and Xi’s joint condemnation of the threat of nukes at Bali earlier this month, the so-called ‘track two’ understandings of March have become a ‘track one’ public policy. Thanks to Wang’s shuttle diplomacy, Nato and China have effectively aligned on not escalating the Ukraine-Russia conflict, according to the Chinese source. Over a series of meetings with Nato leadership since early September, Wang pledged to use China’s considerable leverage in Moscow to dissuade Putin from using nukes, while in return Nato has affirmed that they would not provide strategic weapons to Ukraine.
Is the news true?
So this agreement is beneficial to Russia, because if Putin needs to use nuclear weapons, then perhaps the Ukrainians have marched into Moscow.

The current political position is the most favorable for China, but the West has been trying to threaten us to join the sanctions against Russia in the early months of the war. They don't understand at all that if we have to choose one side to join, it will not be the West.
However, Putin had better be serious and end the war as soon as possible. If his carelessness leads to unpredictable chain reaction, Russia will completely lose all its dominance.
Back to the original topic, I think it's a mistake to think that Russians can't help china. As I said, Russia has vast underpopulated areas of far east with airports. Just having Russia willing to share isr data, allow Chinese aircraft to land and protecting those air bases would be a huge help in any kind of persistent offensive against north part of Japan and Alaska.
This is a good idea, but there are too many obstacles. The Russians know very well what despicable means they used to obtain the Far East from China. And the Russians do not seem to care about the feelings of the Chinese at this point.
A few days ago, the Russian Embassy even publicized the commemoration day of "Conquering the East (Vladivostok)" on the Chinese network. We were very unhappy, but because Russians are important neighbors against the West, we did not publicize this vicious event.

For a long time, the political opposition in China has always appeared as an anti Russian ultra nationalist. They have been advocating that CPC is a puppet of Russia. China does not need the communism provided by the Russians, but should return to Sun Yat sen's Three People's Principles.

Before the Russians encounter major setbacks, I think they will never let any Chinese government or private forces go deep into the Far East. This arrogant attitude of Russia is bound to further increase the influence of the political opposition.
Even the current North Korea has not obtained such deep military cooperation, which must be based on Putin's great determination.
 

tphuang

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Is the news true?
So this agreement is beneficial to Russia, because if Putin needs to use nuclear weapons, then perhaps the Ukrainians have marched into Moscow.

The current political position is the most favorable for China, but the West has been trying to threaten us to join the sanctions against Russia in the early months of the war. They don't understand at all that if we have to choose one side to join, it will not be the West.
However, Putin had better be serious and end the war as soon as possible. If his carelessness leads to unpredictable chain reaction, Russia will completely lose all its dominance.

This is a good idea, but there are too many obstacles. The Russians know very well what despicable means they used to obtain the Far East from China. And the Russians do not seem to care about the feelings of the Chinese at this point.
A few days ago, the Russian Embassy even publicized the commemoration day of "Conquering the East (Vladivostok)" on the Chinese network. We were very unhappy, but because Russians are important neighbors against the West, we did not publicize this vicious event.

For a long time, the political opposition in China has always appeared as an anti Russian ultra nationalist. They have been advocating that CPC is a puppet of Russia. China does not need the communism provided by the Russians, but should return to Sun Yat sen's Three People's Principles.

Before the Russians encounter major setbacks, I think they will never let any Chinese government or private forces go deep into the Far East. This arrogant attitude of Russia is bound to further increase the influence of the political opposition.
Even the current North Korea has not obtained such deep military cooperation, which must be based on Putin's great determination.
I'm a little confused about this. China/Russia border is a settled issue. Why concern yourself with Vladivostok? Sure, a couple of people in China might be unhappy, but it's no big deal. A Russian ally is far more important than cold empty land up there.

Right now, Russia is probably more motivated than ever to help China in the even of a China vs America confrontation. It's a real failure in American foreign policy.

Let's say that Russia does not allow China to operate from its land. Do you think that will stop PLA from flying over Russian air space on its way to attack Alaska or Japan? Or have ballistic missiles fly over Russian air space on its way to attack targets?

And if a Chinese fighter jet/bomber is short on fuel and have to land in a Russian airport, would the Russians deny it? I seriously doubt that. I think even if Russia does not actively help PLA, even passive help would be quite useful.

But given what we've seen with the two sides in the Far East, I think Russians are willing to contribute more than that.

Btw, this is not just the Russians. I fully expect NK to attack Japan with ballistic missiles if Japan gets actively involved. I expect Pakistan, Myanmar and Cambodia to all allow Chinese aircraft to operate out of their air bases and set up infrastructure there when the time arrives.

From this stand point, I think China should gift more air defense missiles and radars to Myanmar and Cambodia and help build their military. So that when the time comes, China can just make use of those facilities. In the case of Myanmar, I think it's important to get them to fly J-10C and train with PLAAF, so they can have facilities that can support J-10 in their country.
 

zhangjim

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I'm a little confused about this. China/Russia border is a settled issue. Why concern yourself with Vladivostok? Sure, a couple of people in China might be unhappy, but it's no big deal. A Russian ally is far more important than cold empty land up there.
So things you think are too simple.
The Ukrainian war is regarded by many Chinese anti Russian factions as another expansion of Russian chauvinism, and should actively participate in containment of Russia,
Historically, Russia has really hurt too many of its neighbors.
The entire northern fringe of China was captured by Russia. Mongolia's independence has deprived China of the entire northern strategic buffer zone, as well as the territory of millions of square kilometers in the Far East(even including the population expulsion and slaughter led by Tsar Nicholas II).
Up to now, all the major cities in the Far East must use the place names of China in the past on the map of China. You can see the true attitude of the Chinese government towards this area.

China's nongovernmental commercial activities in the Far East are not pleasant. The Russians always confiscate the farmland contracted by the Chinese in the Far East for various reasons.
In addition, as if on purpose, the Russians have built bridges over the Tumen River (China's only outlet to the sea in the Far East) that are impassable to large ships.

We have ample reasons to believe that Russia does not want the Chinese to have too much activity in the Far East. The idea you put forward must be based on sufficient trust between the two sides, but the Russians are obviously taking strict precautions against us in the Far East.

One additional sentence: Russians have no scruple about the feelings of the Chinese on this historical issue, and their behavior will only further aggravate anti Russian sentiment. Even Deng said, "In history, the Russians have taken the most territory from us".

The Russians should thank the Soviet era. Our friendship for the Russians is entirely based on the memory of communism.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

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iirc, i think this is kind of similar to Bismarck’s reassurence treaty with Russia, in which he guarenteed Russia's safty if Austria is to start a war proactively with Russia, but does not cover the scenario where Russia start a war first. The treaty is at the center of Bismark's strategy to keep the holy alliance (German, Russia & Austria) together in spite of tension between Russia and Austria over the Balkans.

i think China is walking a thin line here. She guarentee Russia's safety, making sure Putin does not collaps and Russian continue to be friendly. Meanwhile, she avoid confronting European powers by not supporting Russia directly with arms sale, at the same time seducing France/Germany with economic benefit, the goal is to cultivate the possibility of Europe staying neutral in the coming sino-us conflict.

As to whether Russia will support China in some way in TW scenario, i cannot see how Russia can support materially in significant way.
Maybe allowing bomber passage? if the target is Japan, is it necessary to fly through Russia air space? if the target is CONUS, i dont know.

in short, i see this alleged security guarentee more like China providing it, rather than receiving it
1. early warning data to ensure no possibility of a surprise first strike

2. sharing satellite data when Chinese satellites are not overhead and particularly for northern regions where Russian satellite orbits have better coverage

3. guaranteed oil/gas supply

4. guaranteed safe north to deny enemies entry

5. ground based radar and AWAC data monitoring Sea of Japan
 

caohailiang

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1. early warning data to ensure no possibility of a surprise first strike

2. sharing satellite data when Chinese satellites are not overhead and particularly for northern regions where Russian satellite orbits have better coverage

3. guaranteed oil/gas supply

4. guaranteed safe north to deny enemies entry

5. ground based radar and AWAC data monitoring Sea of Japan

i think #3 is significant that i omited, maybe also food import.

but the other 4, i dont regard them as security guarentee, which in my opinion include massive arms sales and large scale joint operation, if needed.

intelligence sharing, though very important, is not as far as security guarentee
 

tphuang

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So things you think are too simple.
The Ukrainian war is regarded by many Chinese anti Russian factions as another expansion of Russian chauvinism, and should actively participate in containment of Russia,
Historically, Russia has really hurt too many of its neighbors.
The entire northern fringe of China was captured by Russia. Mongolia's independence has deprived China of the entire northern strategic buffer zone, as well as the territory of millions of square kilometers in the Far East(even including the population expulsion and slaughter led by Tsar Nicholas II).
Up to now, all the major cities in the Far East must use the place names of China in the past on the map of China. You can see the true attitude of the Chinese government towards this area.

But that's a long time ago. It's settled. China gave up on their claims 20 years. It can keep old Chinese names on those Far East cities and it doesn't matter.

China's nongovernmental commercial activities in the Far East are not pleasant. The Russians always confiscate the farmland contracted by the Chinese in the Far East for various reasons.
In addition, as if on purpose, the Russians have built bridges over the Tumen River (China's only outlet to the sea in the Far East) that are impassable to large ships.
Well, that's what happens when you deal with the Russian gov't. If you don't like it, don't have commercial activities in Russia.

We have ample reasons to believe that Russia does not want the Chinese to have too much activity in the Far East. The idea you put forward must be based on sufficient trust between the two sides, but the Russians are obviously taking strict precautions against us in the Far East.

One additional sentence: Russians have no scruple about the feelings of the Chinese on this historical issue, and their behavior will only further aggravate anti Russian sentiment. Even Deng said, "In history, the Russians have taken the most territory from us".

The Russians should thank the Soviet era. Our friendship for the Russians is entirely based on the memory of communism.
Well, Russia has weakened significantly. For the past 20 years, there were fears from Russian elites that China will take over their Far East. This war was as good of an opportunity as any for China to take advantage of the Russia and it clearly did not do that. More importantly, Russia now realize its economic future rests in its Asian neighbors and have recalibrated their policy as such. The liberals in the country have also become anti-West. The friendship with Russians have nothing to do with communism. It is through 20 years of collaboration in military field and general goal toward multi-polar world that is anti-West/NATO. In a shooting war, Russia would gladly help China stick it to America. If China loses in such a conflict, Russia will definitely be entirely isolated.
 

FairAndUnbiased

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Registered Member
So things you think are too simple.
The Ukrainian war is regarded by many Chinese anti Russian factions as another expansion of Russian chauvinism, and should actively participate in containment of Russia,
Historically, Russia has really hurt too many of its neighbors.
The entire northern fringe of China was captured by Russia. Mongolia's independence has deprived China of the entire northern strategic buffer zone, as well as the territory of millions of square kilometers in the Far East(even including the population expulsion and slaughter led by Tsar Nicholas II).
Up to now, all the major cities in the Far East must use the place names of China in the past on the map of China. You can see the true attitude of the Chinese government towards this area.

China's nongovernmental commercial activities in the Far East are not pleasant. The Russians always confiscate the farmland contracted by the Chinese in the Far East for various reasons.
In addition, as if on purpose, the Russians have built bridges over the Tumen River (China's only outlet to the sea in the Far East) that are impassable to large ships.
Russian government isn't business friendly to anyone. Even Russians get their property taken away at times. If you do business in Russia, that is the cost of doing business. If you don't want to deal with this, don't do business in Russia.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
this showed up on the Ukraine thread and is quite interesting.
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If something like this was agreed to between China and Russia, the implication is quite far reaching. At a minimum, I would imagine that Russia (and North Korea) would allow Chinese aircraft to operate out of Russian air bases in the far east. Other possibilities would be allowing DF-26 or DF-17 brigades to operate out of Siberia so they can attack air fields in Alaska. And maybe set up and share early warning radar data with the Russians. Other possibilities of being able to use military base In Russia far east is that they'd be able to station surface ships and nuclear submarines in Sea of Okhotsk and operate with Russian Far East Fleet. That would allow them to have air protection for their fleet.

Just generally speaking, they will be able to keep up attacks on Japanese air fields if they can operate out of Russian and NK air fields.

Sorry, but the more I think about this claim, the more implausible and silly it gets.

Firstly, while there is indeed a lot of benefits to such an agreement for China in a future hypothetical Taiwan scenario, there are also massive colossal costs right now and potentially in the near future to such a mutual defence packed in Ukraine.

Such a deal is precisely the kind of ‘smoking gun’ Washington has been wet dreaming about to prove to the EU that China is their existential enemy so the EU needs to join in America’s economic and technological crusade against China no matter the costs. There is no way such a massive tectonic shift in the geopolitical landscape would only be covered by one low readership magazine in the UK if true. Especially if this agreement was done in March.

The timing of the claimed agreement also doesn’t make sense. The Russians were still winning in March, so why the need for Chinese protection?

Also, the Russians didn’t start making statements that would remotely be taken seriously as ‘nuclear threats’ until September during the mobilisation.

The only scenario under which it might have made sense for China to offer Russia this kind of security assurances is to avert the possibility of imminent Russian nuclear weapons use, and thereby kicking off WWIII and global MAD. That isn’t remotely on the cards even today, never mind back in March.

This kind of treaty’s implications are so massive it would only be considered as a last resort, not a first response. China has not even taken a single step on its escalation ladder of support for Russia yet, but we are to believe it basically committed to going to war alongside Russia against NATO should deterrence fail?

Speaking of deterrence, the whole point of mutual defence treaties are to deter aggression against your buddy. Never before in modern history has a nation signed a mutual defence treaty hoping to get sucked into a massive and potentially ruinously costly war. But that’s basically what signing such a treaty but keeping it secret would do for China. Zero deterrence and full costs, yeah sure.

If NATO was massing huge tank armies and air fleets and looking to want to get directly involved in the Ukraine war and not stop at the former boarders of Ukraine, China might consider signing such a treaty to try to scare NATO into changing course and not forcing Russia to seriously consider using nukes. But we are still a whole lot of steps away from such a scenario. And even if we do get very close to that scenario, China would not keep such a security guarantee a secret since that would defeat the whole purpose of having that guarantee.
 
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