Ladakh Flash Point

ougoah said:

Let's also get real here. I'm sure Indian T-90s can shoot in high altitude.

Just because they don't supply footage of their T-90s shooting or in high altitude, doesn't mean they can't. It also doesn't mean there aren't any footage of this they just don't want to or haven't released. They obviously might have more issues due to oxygen deprivation for the engines but there's no doubt T-90s can and probably do operate in high altitude areas in western and south western Ladakh.

Click to expand...

Indian T-90s can shoot in high altitude alright. I don't doubt it for once. The question is, can it actually hit the target, consistently?

We can have little doubt that the PLA is gonna train on the assumption that the Indian T-90s can shoot as well as their tanks. The real question is can Indian T-90s actually perform in Ladakh? No use having a better tank on paper than a ZTQ-15 (as claimed by India and Russia) if it cannot perform well in its own designated mission. A tank its not just about gunnery. There are also other factors like engine performance, logistics, and crew performance. The crew, the men in the tank are especially the ones that could make or break the tank. Given India's lack of live-firing exercise, and actual large-scale exercise, this is a real issue.

Let's also get real about this lack of T-90 live-fire exercise footage too. This is India we are talking about. If they had performed actual live-firing exercises with their T-90s, would they have kept it quiet? I mean this is a country that could have a demonstration of quadcopters dropping colored balls/cans on exploding wooden tanks. Then proudly called it: "Indian Drone Swarm technology".

Div said:

I believe jinnah was mostly responsible
Mountbatten had an interesting history with him and then Thier were riots I think those were the major factors Britishers were I think 35 percent responsible in my opinion

Click to expand...

Maybe you attribute 35% direct responsibility. But would it happen if they weren't present at all? Impossible to say yeah okay but also no. Hence why I said "pushed Pakistan....."

Sardaukar20 said:

US, NATO, Russia, and China have all proudly broadcasted live-fire exercises. Tank live firing exercises were amongst the most common activities that were broadcasted. Why is India so shy to broadcast its own T-90s doing live-fire exercises? Its just a T-90, not some top secret future MBT project. The only time in recent memory that I have seen an Indian T-90 firing its guns was in the 2017 Tank Biathlon. Not a competition that would cover the Indian T-90 in glory. So, I do have a question. Is India hiding something that it doesn't want the world to see? Hmm, very suspicious.

Altitude charts are no substitute to actual firing experience. Every experienced military knows that. No serious tanker is gonna just look at a ballistics chart, and play pretend that the rounds are gonna hit the target based on that. They will need to verify and adjust with live-firing.

Sure modern FCS can help calculate ballistic performance in any weather condition. But like any automated system, it needs calibration. Then it would also need to be verified in actual live-firing. What good is a simulated ballistic solution if it cannot actually hit the target in real life? NATO fields arguably the best FCSs in the world. Yet it still conducts live-fire exercise. Is Indian gunnery so superior to NATO that they don't need to do it? Or maybe so top secret, that they cannot show to the world? LOL! Give me a break.

Click to expand...

Its funny when non technical ppl use words like caliberation without actually knowing what it means.
As i have already written, IA is not obliged to broadcast every military exercise. Its childish to expect the same.
If they produced charts for artillery firing 30 years back for high altitudes, its pretty obvious that the same would have been done for other equipment, including tanks and drones and missiles. All are effected by the thin air.

tallgamer said:

Its funny when non technical ppl use words like caliberation without actually knowing what it means.
As i have already written, IA is not obliged to broadcast every military exercise. Its childish to expect the same.
If they produced charts for artillery firing 30 years back for high altitudes, its pretty obvious that the same would have been done for other equipment, including tanks and drones and missiles. All are effected by the thin air.

Click to expand...

It's funny when you spelt it wrong as you jibed. If you know what it means in this context, mind sharing?

tallgamer said:

Its funny when non technical ppl use words like caliberation without actually knowing what it means.
As i have already written, IA is not obliged to broadcast every military exercise. Its childish to expect the same.
If they produced charts for artillery firing 30 years back for high altitudes, its pretty obvious that the same would have been done for other equipment, including tanks and drones and missiles. All are effected by the thin air.

Click to expand...

Indeed, Technical people would know it's actually Calibration.

India anyway is trying to place orders for Sprut or has started to issue requirements for a Light tank - After berating its worth when Chinese introduced them. Back then the Indian spin was that "Indian tanks are heavier and more powerful, Light tanks of China has no good armor". Once the dust settled in Panging Tso, they started to look at the Light tanks seriously.

The T-90 also is at a disadvantage when mobilization and transport are considered. China can air drop atleast two light tanks while only a single heavy T-90 class can be transported.

Not just light tanks but India is at a disadvantage regarding light howitzers. It has procured M777A2 from US ( a token number) but I guess that's because the Chinese got the AH-4 and better versions.

Div said:

Brits also pushed for Pakistan and Bangladesh to be balkanised from "India"
Thier was no Bangladesh then

Click to expand...

Also by the last time India waa united was under the Marathas. By the time the British arrived the major powers in the subcontinent were the Marathas in modern India and the Sikhs in the northwest.

tallgamer said:

Its funny when non technical ppl use words like caliberation without actually knowing what it means.
As i have already written, IA is not obliged to broadcast every military exercise. Its childish to expect the same.
If they produced charts for artillery firing 30 years back for high altitudes, its pretty obvious that the same would have been done for other equipment, including tanks and drones and missiles. All are effected by the thin air.

Click to expand...

It's funny to read a Jai Hind technical expert clown talking about 'caliberation'. Let me spell it out for you:
c-a-l-i-b-r-a-t-i-o-n. Well done genius. You can't even spell calibration right even with auto-correct. Next time, please 'caliberate' your brain before going into arguments here.

So India has a 30 year old artillery firing chart. So now it's the best military in the world? 30 year old artillery charts don't need re-verification? Ok, suit yourself.

IA is not obliged to broadcast all exercises? Sure, I don't disagree with you. But IA is obliged to broadcast T-90s dancing around in Ladakh but not oblidged to broadcast live-firing? Why? So strange. Such a waste of diesel fuel, just to show T-90s dancing around instead of actually showing what tanks are supposed to do.

Xsizor said:

Indeed, Technical people would know it's actually Calibration.

India anyway is trying to place orders for Sprut or has started to issue requirements for a Light tank - After berating its worth when Chinese introduced them. Back then the Indian spin was that "Indian tanks are heavier and more powerful, Light tanks of China has no good armor". Once the dust settled in Panging Tso, they started to look at the Light tanks seriously.

The T-90 also is at a disadvantage when mobilization and transport are considered. China can air drop atleast two light tanks while only a single heavy T-90 class can be transported.

Not just light tanks but India is at a disadvantage regarding light howitzers. It has procured M777A2 from US ( a token number) but I guess that's because the Chinese got the AH-4 and better versions.

Click to expand...

Calibration- your win.
Why so much discussion on tanks though ? Its a past century equipment that in a modern battle will be a sitting target. As seen in the recent Turkey backed conflict.
India Pakistan with comparable technological levels , tanks might be more relevant but i doubt India china conflicts will revolve around the shooting accuracy of tanks. Dont see tanks leading the charge. Too many effective anti tank measures around now.
As for comparing tanks , lighter tanks are more maneuverable but have lighter armor. In the 65 indo pak conflict, the modern american patton tanks with Pakistan could not penetrate the armor of the ww2 centurions with India.

Even artillery with its greater range and firepower might be more effective with its blanket coverage. Though airpower and drones might rule the roost.
From a dispassionate viewpoint, a small conflict between the two countries would be pretty interesting. Chinese mostly homegrown weapons/Russian vs Indian western and Russian.

tallgamer said:

The British are responsible for the creation of Pakistan and erstwhile east Pakistan and for that most Indians thank them. Muslims unfortunately are a high maintenance group and another 400 m of them in undivided India would have been a disaster. And i am a moderate hindu who has never entered a temple. Totally non religious.
Indians, germans, Japanese, Italians are not living in the 1940s like the Chinese with their century of humiliation. It was the past, we look at whats happening now.
Congress fought for independence while jinnah fought for division. He didn't spend a single day in jail during the independence struggle. Probably a British plant.
Compared to the 16 years each that Gandhi and nehru spent.
Uk wanted a pliable country post independence and i accept Pakistan has served them and usa well. SEATO , Afghan war against the Soviets and now keeping the Taliban 2.0 moderate, till now , to reduce blame on the west for deserting the Afghans.
Indians problem with China is the border dispute. The arms supply to Pakistan is never brought up officially as its China's prerogative to sell arms where it likes.
Issues with Pakistan are going south since imran Khan as last year he has torn up the 75 yr old division of India and started claiming areas not connected to kashmir. Its as if he wants more hostilities.

Click to expand...

Okay so to go back to what brought up this sidetrack, you guys have no issues with the West in particular UK. They did draw up your borders and it wasn't China which brought about Pakistan and Bangladesh or as you put it, India divided. You personally at least consider it a good thing since 400m Muslims "would have been a disaster" for India in your opinion.

Okay. The points are made.

I wouldn't say China is still living in its century of humiliation no more than I would say Germans, Japanese, Italians etc are living in the 1940s. You guys still look at the past though, rather than "what's happening now". You guys constantly have issues with the Britishers and for good reason. It was a double edged sword. It brought you benefits as well as a lot of problems. Probably much more problems than benefits but the benefits were not exploited.

What did the UK want out of "pliable country post independece"? How did Pakistan serve them and USA well?

The rest I agree with. Sell to whoever you want and the only major issue are border disputes that date all the way back to the founding of India and the PRC during the mid 20th century. It is a middle ground and right at the edges of Tibet and "India", pre independence and post, mixed in with your unresolved border disputes with Pakistan as J&K is not well defined to say the least.

Imran Khan tearing up 75 yo division of India and started claiming areas not connected to Kashmir is news to me and irrelevant to India China border dispute. If he wants more hostilities, India should resolve that in whatever way it is able to. Why would he want more hostilities? He has recently been partly responsible for the Pakistan and India ceasefires has he not? Extending a bridge to India right when India has tension with China. I would say he's been doing the opposite of trying to increase hostilities as you said. But I am not too familiar with Pakistan India developments beyond the ceasefire this year.

twineedle said:

Also by the last time India waa united was under the Marathas. By the time the British arrived the major powers in the subcontinent were the Marathas in modern India and the Sikhs in the northwest.

Click to expand...

I don't think they united whole of what is present day India ( unless I'm missing something).

It is very interesting though to see attempts to give some continuity and historical nation-state identity to India.