Ladakh Flash Point

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davidau

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Lol yes you guys do make great call centres. Actually not that great to be honest but it makes bills cheaper after all. Trade surplus and deficit is unfair? That's something strange to think.

Show me how China has a very restrictive import policy. Anything the world produces you can buy in China. A single Chinese city spends more on whatever European finished goods you can think of compared to the entire of India.

India produces and exports little except some raw materials, chemicals etc which everyone else also exports depending on their trade advantages in the specific field.

China uses extremist country like Pakistan to target India? How so? China has a pseudo alliance with a sovereign nation called Pakistan. You don't like that because you don't like that India has deep and violent disagreements with Pakistan. But how is that China and Pakistan's fault. Maybe you're the asshole?

India has no morals at all. It forces children to clean sewers. It calls a great portion of its population "untouchables" it kills and jails journalists. It kills and arrests protestors. It cannot improve its conditions and poverty. Its political and elite classes use brainwashing and propaganda to continue the whole farce. It blames its problems on everyone else and accuses them of everything but itself of nothing.

It talks shit about Chinese equipment but uses it and uses it fine. Chinese equipment is so bad its ships are decades old and work well. Indian ones blow up, fall over or aren't desired and purchased by others at all. Chinese ones account for half of the world's orders. Chinese equipment is so bad it manages to land Mars lander and rover in the first go using its own technology that it had to develop and trial. It's so bad that it managed to do many exclusive feats in the first attempt. It's so bad Tesla and Apple both asking to use Chinese BYD and CATL battery technology. It's so bad it leads the world in telecommunications technologies (thousands of patents and individual ecosystems of tech), leads the world in supercomputing with the US, quantum technologies, drone technologies, electronics manufacturing and design. It's so bad the world has no better alternative to the quality and value of its manufacturing and supply chain solutions.

India is there making beach towels and trying to compete with Vietnam and Bangladesh.
Bravo, you hit the nail on the head. How about the dead corpses floating on the holy river called Ganges because of the covid pandemic but also during ordinary times. Everyone wash their body in this unholy river with a hope of better afterlife, or because they can't afford running water to cleanse themselves?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
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This is probably the most overall comprehensive view of how things stand.

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The important chart to summarise.

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Indian chauvinists of course will still want to simplify things down to hopelessly inaccurate viewpoints like "China can only copy"... well even if that were true (and it's not entirely e.g. 5G, supercomputing, quantum machines, drones, battery tech, display tech, phones etc which China innovated and/or led and leads) at least China can learn and can manage to copy and improve to the point of developing on top of and selling.

India can do none of that. It cannot even copy a smartphone because these things require thousands of pieces of technology from chips to the machinery used to form the metal case. It isn't 1915 anymore. Things are much more complex and supply chains are even more so. China dominates it and the US wants to decouple because China is so dominant in so many industries and supply chains.

India has no dominance in any field. It hasn't got industry that's competitive in any field.

You can say pharma and IT call centres well no because Indian pharma isn't even as good as China's in developing and producing products. China manages to create resistant forms of agricultural produce and India can make western medicines. Well China and a whole host of countries can too. That's like being proud that your city has a Mcdonalds. As for call centres, well there are other parts of the world that can speak English decently and have low labour costs. Philippines comes to mind. It's also a pretty crappy thing to mention as being competent in. It requires no real skills or technology and doesn't involve producing or engineering anything.

whatever small slithers of real skills and industries india actually has, China and many other places have those in spades and far better and competitive than India's.
 
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Div

New Member
Registered Member
Not only that, the Brits also pushed for Pakistan and Bangladesh to be balkanised from "India".

Winston Churchill -
"India is a geographical term. It is no more a united nation than the Equator."

People these days don't realise that India was never a nation. The last time it can be considered a united, sovereign nation was when the Muslims conquered and united a geographic space that resembles modern "India". In contrast, China's united history is since 秦始皇 around 200BC.

Both have had history, culture, and civilisation i.e. language, law, society etc since at least 2000BC but that era shouldn't be counted since they weren't united anywhere near what the modern nations geographically represent.

This is also partly why border disputes like this one are tricky. Indians of course can only see it as a binary. They are of course always right and everything the say is correct according to them.
Brits also pushed for Pakistan and Bangladesh to be balkanised from "India"
Thier was no Bangladesh then
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Bravo, you hit the nail on the head. How about the dead corpses floating on the holy river called Ganges because of the covid pandemic but also during ordinary times. Everyone wash their body in this unholy river with a hope of better afterlife, or because they can't afford running water to cleanse themselves?

I'd refrain from that. It's their beliefs and we shouldn't be mocking it. That's their way of life.

I just find it bizarre jai hinds have this monumental self delusion by constantly badmouthing others and claiming shit like oohhhh you make junk etc etc well what does that make you idiot?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
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Brits also pushed for Pakistan and Bangladesh to be balkanised from "India"
Thier was no Bangladesh then

Would you agree that Britain was at the very least partially (if not overwhelmingly) responsible for separation of Pakistan and Bangladesh being formed as a result to distinguish Bengal cultures and also reconcile its majority Islamic identity, into being formed as "eastern Pakistan".

It surely set the motion. None of this was done by China. The old Chinese communist leaders simply considered Indian leadership to at least be influenced negatively by British imperialism. They didn't trust the Indians and for good reason it would be proved. China isn't responsible for Pakistan and Bangladesh. It isn't responsible for the disputes between Pakistan and India and it isn't responsible for the choices Pakistan has made.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
No idea whether recalibration has taken place for the tanks but why assume that all military operations will be openly broadcast ?
But nowadays i doubt 1000s of rounds are required.
Their were always altitude charts against which firing took place .These charts just have to be fine tuned with firing at the required altitude. With modern computing even these can be reduced.
Technically i would be more interested in the effect of very cold weather on the change in clearances. Though being Russian tanks that might be a big issue. Unless the tanks were especially made for the hot desert regions of rajasthan with different clearances.
US, NATO, Russia, and China have all proudly broadcasted live-fire exercises. Tank live firing exercises were amongst the most common activities that were broadcasted. Why is India so shy to broadcast its own T-90s doing live-fire exercises? Its just a T-90, not some top secret future MBT project. The only time in recent memory that I have seen an Indian T-90 firing its guns was in the 2017 Tank Biathlon. Not a competition that would cover the Indian T-90 in glory. So, I do have a question. Is India hiding something that it doesn't want the world to see? Hmm, very suspicious.

Altitude charts are no substitute to actual firing experience. Every experienced military knows that. No serious tanker is gonna just look at a ballistics chart, and play pretend that the rounds are gonna hit the target based on that. They will need to verify and adjust with live-firing.

Sure modern FCS can help calculate ballistic performance in any weather condition. But like any automated system, it needs calibration. Then it would also need to be verified in actual live-firing. What good is a simulated ballistic solution if it cannot actually hit the target in real life? NATO fields arguably the best FCSs in the world. Yet it still conducts live-fire exercise. Is Indian gunnery so superior to NATO that they don't need to do it? Or maybe so top secret, that they cannot show to the world? LOL! Give me a break.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
US, NATO, Russia, and China have all proudly broadcasted live-fire exercises. Tank live firing exercises were amongst the most common activities that were broadcasted. Why is India so shy to broadcast its own T-90s doing live-fire exercises? Its just a T-90, not some top secret future MBT project. The only time in recent memory that I have seen an Indian T-90 firing its guns was in the 2017 Tank Biathlon. Not a competition that would cover the Indian T-90 in glory. So, I do have a question. Is India hiding something that it doesn't want the world to see? Hmm, very suspicious.

Altitude charts are no substitute to actual firing experience. Every experienced military knows that. No serious tanker is gonna just look at a ballistics chart, and play pretend that the rounds are gonna hit the target based on that. They will need to verify and adjust with live-firing.

Sure modern FCS can help calculate ballistic performance in any weather condition. But like any automated system, it needs calibration. Then it would also need to be verified in actual live-firing. What good is a simulated ballistic solution if it cannot actually hit the target in real life? NATO fields arguably the best FCSs in the world. Yet it still conducts live-fire exercise. Is Indian gunnery so superior to NATO that they don't need to do it? Or maybe so top secret, that they cannot show to the world? LOL! Give me a break.

Let's also get real here. I'm sure Indian T-90s can shoot in high altitude.

Just because they don't supply footage of their T-90s shooting or in high altitude, doesn't mean they can't. It also doesn't mean there aren't any footage of this they just don't want to or haven't released. They obviously might have more issues due to oxygen deprivation for the engines but there's no doubt T-90s can and probably do operate in high altitude areas in western and south western Ladakh.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
No there wasn't.As there was no india. It was created through struggle, fight & blood, unlike India delivered in a begging bowl :cool:

Long term, Bangladesh at least seem to have its act together. It is developing along at pace and it understands how to play politics effectively (not headless chicken routine India currently is performing under Modi). It understands how to play India, China, US, etc and manage differences. China does this too everywhere with everyone it deals with. Compromising is but one dimension. They might think they humour India too much but it pays to have stability.

Pakistan isn't making that progress because it is much more locked into warfare. This is another reason why China wouldn't have instigated this ladakh border crisis. It has nothing to gain and much to lose to inflame unnecessary tensions and going to war. China's policy is to avoid war unless it is required for long term security e.g. eradicating extremism within China, fortifying SCS islands for A2AD in case of military conflict with US. Taiwan is a long term struggle and the "completing of China" through finally putting an end to the Chinese civil war. With India, inciting tension and going to war is only going to slow down China and damage it in terms of men, material, waste, and no doubt goodwill.

Pakistan and India are locked in this stupid dance over Kashmir. India wants PoK and for Pakistan to stop with the terrorism. Pakistan wants India to grant Kashmir independence or to cede to Pakistan and of course also stop with the terrorism as well. It harms and damages both like war nearly always does. The worst thing is both buy foreign military equipment almost exclusively. Very little is made and developed in India and Pakistan. This makes the monetary cost even greater.

So long term, Bangladesh will be glad it separated from silly India. Too messy and big to govern well and honestly too hard. They need authoritarianism to get anywhere towards resolving long standing social issues to say nothing of the social and political engineering required behind pulling that off - not just authoritarianism.

Pakistan unfortunately doesn't seem to be progressing because too much effort and resources are spent at dealing with India.

Bangladesh wins and deservedly so perhaps. Over time it'll become better than India.
 

Div

New Member
Registered Member
Would you agree that Britain was at the very least partially (if not overwhelmingly) responsible for separation of Pakistan and Bangladesh being formed as a result to distinguish Bengal cultures and also reconcile its majority Islamic identity, into being formed as "eastern Pakistan
I believe jinnah was mostly responsible
Mountbatten had an interesting history with him and then Thier were riots I think those were the major factors Britishers were I think 35 percent responsible in my opinion
 
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