Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle said:

The reason Pangong was an issue was because PLA had erected permanent structures which it had not done before. Confrontations between patrols happened all the time that is hardly newsworthy. You were saying that PLA "rarely" sent patrols.

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twineedle said:

When did I bring up permanent structures? I was referring to patrols. You said PLA rarely patrolled the disputed areas. I was saying that isn't true. I thought we were always discussing patrols?

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Woah hang on you are actually being slippery here.

First you claimed China patrols more.

I corrected your conjecture with proof and evidence. It is undeniable.

You then choose to show a 2017 video of a confrontation at F4 which you didn't consider would absolutely ruin your argument position for obvious reasons (I explained). Now you're changing the topic.

So you agree then that the only decent evidence available shows that India patrolled more. Which explains China's sense of urgency and feeling Aksai Chin and 20% dispute is being threatened, hence action -> occupation of land -> disengage after India agrees to leave and convert land to buffer.

Your Colonel Dinny isn't as reputable as VK Singh I'm afraid. Do you know why? Because a pro-India Indian saying India is right and did these things right is suspect. A pro-India Indian of MUCH higher authority and knowledge of these events admitting India did some things that don't serve India's narrative is much less suspect and so rare and unexpected it ought to be listened to.

If you take Dinny's words should we also assume every Chinese PLA leaker is saying the truth about everything the PLA has done here?

ougoah said:

I already posted the evidence. You reject every piece of actual evidence but support every conjecture jai hinds come up with. Honestly there is no reasoning with you sometimes.

Here is the evidence and this is the only real piece of evidence pertaining to patrolling and frequency. The only piece and the also most valid since it comes from the horse's mouth.

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It's widely reported and it's undeniably true that India's Four Star General said this about LAC/ Ladakh in 2020 in the context of this confrontation.

Sometimes trying to explain and reason is simply futile but I do it for other members too.

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I have provided actual evidence, in the form of an Officer who led patrols at Pangong and specifically was referring to Pangong. VK singh didn't even mention Pangong, and could have been referring to any of the disputed areas. I said that there are areas within the dispute where India patrolled and still patrols more than China.

Is VK Singh correct when he says 60+ PLA casualties?

ougoah said:

Woah hang on you are actually being slippery here.

First you claimed China patrols more.

I corrected your conjecture with proof and evidence. It is undeniable.

You then choose to show a 2017 video of a confrontation at F4 which you didn't consider would absolutely ruin your argument position for obvious reasons (I explained). Now you're changing the topic.

So you agree then that the only decent evidence available shows that India patrolled more. Which explains China's sense of urgency and feeling Aksai Chin and 20% dispute is being threatened, hence action -> occupation of land -> disengage after India agrees to leave and convert land to buffer.

Your Colonel Dinny isn't as reputable as VK Singh I'm afraid. Do you know why? Because a pro-India Indian saying India is right and did these things right is suspect. A pro-India Indian of MUCH higher authority and knowledge of these events admitting India did some things that don't serve India's narrative is much less suspect and so rare and unexpected it ought to be listened to.

If you take Dinny's words should we also assume every Chinese PLA leaker is saying the truth about everything the PLA has done here?

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The F4 confrontation in 2018 shows PLA was patrolling fingers 4-8 long before 2020. That actually corroborates everything Colonel Dinny was saying in his interview, if you actually watched it.

I am pretty sure you agree that whenever PLA sees Indian soldiers approaching finger 4, they in turn send troops to block them. Is that controversial?

twineedle said:

I have provided actual evidence, in the form of an Officer who led patrols at Pangong and specifically was referring to Pangong. VK singh didn't even mention Pangong, and could have been referring to any of the disputed areas. I said that there are areas within the dispute where India patrolled and still patrols more than China.

Is VK Singh correct when he says 60+ PLA casualties?

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Again why should we take the word of a pro-India Indian colonel who is expected to say things and lie? What supporting evidence has he actually got? None.

Why should we take the word of a pro-India Indian FOUR STAR GENERAL? when he talks about "LAC"... you are seriously grasping at straws claiming VK Singh wasn't referring to Ladakh when he talks about China and Indian patrols at the LAC in 2020. Come on man.

Dinny says xyz but is that really how it is? Should I also believe the PLA soldiers on Chinese media claiming they captured over 100 Indians from March to June? Or friends of senior PLA who claim India intruded into Reqin and PLA used microwave weapons as a non-lethal means of access denial? At least their stories actually add up. Indians did leak a video purportedly of IA in Reqin on China's side dancing saying they captured Chinese land. China did officially state this and then a week later they left and China says they drove them out. China does have plenty of directed energy weapons. hmmmmmm.

twineedle said:

The F4 confrontation in 2018 shows PLA was patrolling fingers 4-8 long before 2020. That actually corroborates everything Colonel Dinny was saying in his interview, if you actually watched it.

I am pretty sure you agree that whenever PLA sees Indian soldiers approaching finger 4, they in turn send troops to block them. Is that controversial?

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PLA no doubt patrolled finger 8 to finger 4. I wouldn't be surprised that PLA also patrolled to the edge of their claims in northern Ladakh and Demchok. I have never denied this. You seem to stick to this as the final proof of whatever you don't want to directly state.

The issue here is India also patrolled well before 2020.

You are insisting that China patrolled more. I have given you the only worthwhile evidence that suggests China didn't. Then consider the wider context of who managed to take land and then negotiate terms of disengagement.

If India captured Islamabad for 9 months during a conflict and then we learn that Pakistan and India disengaged tensions and troop presence, who do you think would have been negotiating terms of disengagement along their wishes?

ougoah said:

Again why should we take the word of a pro-India Indian colonel who is expected to say things and lie? What supporting evidence has he actually got? None.

Why should we take the word of a pro-India Indian FOUR STAR GENERAL? when he talks about "LAC"... you are seriously grasping at straws claiming VK Singh wasn't referring to Ladakh when he talks about China and Indian patrols at the LAC in 2020. Come on man.

Dinny says xyz but is that really how it is? Should I also believe the PLA soldiers on Chinese media claiming they captured over 100 Indians from March to June? Or friends of senior PLA who claim India intruded into Reqin and PLA used microwave weapons as a non-lethal means of access denial? At least their stories actually add up. Indians did leak a video purportedly of IA in Reqin on China's side dancing saying they captured Chinese land. China did officially state this and then a week later they left and China says they drove them out. China does have plenty of directed energy weapons. hmmmmmm.

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First of all, that video was proven to be old. If you can provide an actual video of what you say, that would be new.

And if we are talking about leakers, Gen. VK Singh said he has reasons to believe over 60 PLA soldiers died. He is credible right?

Now do you actually have any evidence that PLA was not patrolling disputed areas prior to 2020? Or was it just building roads right in the middle of those areas for fun?

ougoah said:

PLA no doubt patrolled finger 8 to finger 4. I wouldn't be surprised that PLA also patrolled to the edge of their claims in northern Ladakh and Demchok. I have never denied this. You seem to stick to this as the final proof of whatever you don't want to directly state.

The issue here is India also patrolled well before 2020.

You are insisting that China patrolled more. I have given you the only worthwhile evidence that suggests China didn't. Then consider the wider context of who managed to take land and then negotiate terms of disengagement.

If India captured Islamabad for 9 months during a conflict and then we learn that Pakistan and India disengaged tensions and troop presence, who do you think would have been negotiating terms of disengagement along their wishes?

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So are you saying PLA allowed Indian soldiers to patrol past finger 4, even though that area is a giant bottleneck that can easily be blocked? Especially since you said China never wanted Indians in that area in the first place.

Obviously, India would patrol more in areas where it has an advantage, as would China. I never denied that.

twineedle said:

First of all, that video was proven to be old. If you can provide an actual video of what you say, that would be new.

And if we are talking about leakers, Gen. VK Singh said he has reasons to believe over 60 PLA soldiers died. He is credible right?

Now do you actually have any evidence that PLA was not patrolling disputed areas prior to 2020? Or was it just building roads right in the middle of those areas for fun?

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Videos of what?

How does that video you posted of 2017 prove that China patrolled more than India and that India didn't patrol disputed land?

Gen VK Singh has to talk for India. What he says that support India's narrative is suspect just like what a Chinese PLA says that happens to support China's. When you reverse it, it is worthy of attention.

Gen VK Singh wants to save India face. If India patrols 20 times more than PLA, he will maybe admit to 10.

When he says PLA lost 60 soldiers. Explain to me why China officially stated PLA lost 5 soldiers in total including those who succumbed to injuries after?

Why did US and no other nation with thermal satellites etc say China is lying. Further, why did Indian government not say officially that they captured x PLA soldiers and y were killed? India sneaks around in the shadows and China puts it all out there officially. Open to challenge and yet not a single challenge.

Why did China capture and return dozens of Indians? Showing it on video and photos of Indians subdued, tied up, and one act of returning soldiers? The videos are in this thread. Nowhere else are there East Asian looking soldiers directing tied up Indian looking soldiers onto trucks.

How come India has yet to release a single photo or video of the fight or of PLA captives and killed during that June fight? How come just China has those captives from India and showed some evidence.

So forgive me for not believing VK Singh when he talks bravado of India (that's part of his job and his livelihood) but when he admits something bad for India that is where attention is deservedly placed. Because you do not expect him to admit anything but when he does, it could be much worse than what he's admitted.

twineedle said:

So are you saying PLA allowed Indian soldiers to patrol past finger 4, even though that area is a giant bottleneck that can easily be blocked? Especially since you said China never wanted Indians in that area in the first place.

Obviously, India would patrol more in areas where it has an advantage, as would China. I never denied that.

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So you are saying PLA always playing around F4 and Indians had no issue with it in 2017 or 2018 or 2019 but around May 2020, that was when the conflict started? Okay.

So you are saying just because there is a rock blocking a 1D path for a vehicle, a 3D person cannot traverse past that obstacle resting on a 2D plane? Okay.

Yes finally we agree that both do patrols. Possibly in their own ways and according to their operational whatevers. What's important beyond this point is how much patrolling did India do and how much China do? Well China says India patrolled too much and China had to respond. Four Star Indian General confirms that they patrolled much more but an Indian colonel says they didn't. Hmmmmm what to pay attention to and what to ignore. You made your position clear and I have mine with this one.

Let's make the concept possibly more accessible for the slower folks.

Say if a hawkish and vehemently pro China Chinese General got into a conflict with Japan. He says China was so strong 3 Chinese soldiers managed to kill a division of Japanese soldiers. Then in a few months he says Chinese equipment did not perform as expected. A hawkish and vehemently pro China Chinese colonel is out in public and Chinese media every day saying Chinese soldiers are so strong and killed 2 divisions of Japanese soldiers... then months later he says Chinese equipment is the best and has performed flawlessly.

What is the more likely conclusion on the performance of equipment? Well the same for India with the patrolling.