Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle · Aug 12, 2021

ougoah said:
So you are saying PLA always playing around F4 and Indians had no issue with it in 2017 or 2018 or 2019 but around May 2020, that was when the conflict started? Okay.

So you are saying just because there is a rock blocking a 1D path for a vehicle, a 3D person cannot traverse past that obstacle resting on a 2D plane? Okay.

Yes finally we agree that both do patrols. Possibly in their own ways and according to their operational whatevers. What's important beyond this point is how much patrolling did India do and how much China do? Well China says India patrolled too much and China had to respond. Four Star Indian General confirms that they patrolled much more but an Indian colonel says they didn't. Hmmmmm what to pay attention to and what to ignore. You made your position clear and I have mine with this one.

No, there was no issue because Pangong is an area of differing perceptions, and confrontations between patrols are normal. The main cause f last year's dispute was PLA setting up permanent structures.

I never said India wasn't patrolling disputed areas, just that in the specific case of Panong, PLA was blocking India from going past finger 4, as shown in the video. So far, you have not provided hard evidence otherwise. That wasn't the only example either, I am pretty sure you have heard of the Depsang bottleneck where similar confrontation has occurred.

There is no reason why what happened in the video on that specific incident couldn't have happened on other occasions.

twineedle · Aug 12, 2021

It is also important to consider that the path connecting finger 3-4 is so narrow, that soldiers can only cross it on foot in single file lines Obviously, this is not a tactically advantageous position as opposed to flat ground past the foxhole point of finger 4, which can hold multiple lanes of vehicles.

This is one reason why in that particular area, there is no way India could have patrolled past finger 4 more than PLA, although it obviously would have wanted to. Same in other areas like Depsang, and to a lesser extent, Gogra. Obviously, there are areas where India has an advantage, so it patrols more. Either way, there is absolutely no evidence PLA patrolled "rarely," at least in the areas involved in the current standoff.

ougoah · Aug 12, 2021

twineedle said:
No, there was no issue because Pangong is an area of differing perceptions, and confrontations between patrols are normal. The main cause f last year's dispute was PLA setting up permanent structures.

I never said India wasn't patrolling disputed areas, just that in the specific case of Panong, PLA was blocking India from going past finger 4, as shown in the video. So far, you have not provided hard evidence otherwise. That wasn't the only example either, I am pretty sure you have heard of the Depsang bottleneck where similar confrontation has occurred.

There is no reason why what happened in the video on that specific incident couldn't have happened on other occasions.

You want me to provide you a video of PLA not at F4 between 2018 to 2020? And failing to means you are right about PLA preventing India from patrolling places like Galwan and Depsang and Kailash and western Reqin? That's like me asking you for a video showing PLA conducted more patrolling of entire 20% dispute compared to IA.

Perhaps you still do not understand. India patrolled many parts of the 20%. This patrolling increased to a certain threshold at which point PLA decided in Jan 2020 that they had to act to prevent India from gaining de facto control over many part of this 20% remaining dispute.

PLA has blocked Indian patrols in 1990 just like 2007 and 2017. India has blocked PLA patrols in years before 2020 as well. The fact that both sides conducted some patrolling and intercepting of patrols doesn't weigh into the causes of the flare up in 2020. However, the frequency and extent of patrols along with troops present within 20% did weigh in on the flare up.

There is no video proving PLA wasn't present in F4 back in 2018. It most likely did not because India lost its mind when PLA occupied up to F4 in 2020. Road construction to F5 was indeed an escalation on China's part as it performed the same method India wanted to use on China to gain control, that being, increasing presence, building up permanent and temporary positions and structures. What set off this recent one was India's attempt at doing exactly this. Compared to a road built when? 2000s? India has built bridges recently did it not?

twineedle said:
The path connecting finger 3-4 is so narrow, that soldiers can only cross it on foot in single file lines Obviously, this is not a tactically advantageous position as opposed to flat ground past the foxhole point of finger 4, which can hold multiple lanes of vehicles.

This is one reason why in that particular area, there is no way India could have patrolled past finger 4 more than PLA, although it obviously would have wanted to. Same in other areas like Depsang, and to a lesser extent, Gogra. Obviously, there are areas where India has an advantage, so it patrols more. Either way, there is absolutely no evidence PLA patrolled "rarely" Maybe in some areas, but no the areas involved in the standoff.

India patrolling F4 to F8 land to the north is what was unacceptable. F4 to F8 is a line right? Indian troops increased patrolled disputed 20% like you have said. With a vehicle obstacle at F4, doesn't mean Indian troops didn't patrol the shaded area.

India's General while this was an ongoing issue (he left and changed office during) is on record stating "China had transgressed many times over the years with its own perception of the LAC. “Similarly, none of you come to know how many times we have transgressed as per our perception. Chinese media does not cover it,” Gen. Singh said.

“Let me assure you, if China has transgressed 10 times, we must have done it at least 50 times,” he added."

Referring to the shaded section of land more or less the 20% (a great chunk of it), India conducted patrols too often for China to feel secure. India's minister and PM both publicly expressed desire to take Aksai Chin, a stretch of land east of this shaded disputed area.

It makes sense for China to respond with increased Indian belligerence and military presence.

ougoah · Aug 12, 2021

It's interesting to ponder why India's own ex Four Star General during this conflict would say and admit such a thing. This is a very direct and confident line. He was damn sure of it and said IA patrolled at least 50 times if PLA performed 10 patrols.

Consider the boastful tone. This was said and done to make Indian nationalists feel big and tough. That they have the might and the ability to conduct patrols whenever they choose and the side implication is PLA is so powerless to stop Indian patrols. They were brave to conduct it in the face of adversity. It wasn't an admission as much as it was a brag.

Later on when this boast isn't quite as convenient, it is an admission and politically inconvenient once the narrative India needed to spin in adjustment to how the situation was developing out of their control. India needed to look like a victim. The helpless IA soldiers were surprised by Chinese attack and had no weapons or equipment ... until it was exposed that the Indians had more men, more equipment, riot gear, and were the ones who attacked the Chinese position.

China said PLA and Chinese construction crew was attacked after. India realised China had evidence and then spun the story to semi admit it. But according to Indians they were still right because they were attacking a Chinese position that was invading sacred India! okay except India had positions and tents and construction that was invading sacred China too from the perspective of people on the other side. I suppose the net result is India attacked. China did not attack any Indian positions inside the 20%.

Both sides were within 20% dispute with positions. Only India performed an attack on a Chinese position.

Both conducted patrols. India patrolled the 20% disputed area (not going to argue which stones have been stepped on) more than 5 times as frequently as bragged and admitted by an ex Four Star General. Someone who confidently and very assuredly stated this as a matter of inconfusable fact.

twineedle · Aug 12, 2021

ougoah said:
You want me to provide you a video of PLA not at F4 between 2018 to 2020? And failing to means you are right about PLA preventing India from patrolling places like Galwan and Depsang and Kailash and western Reqin? That's like me asking you for a video showing PLA conducted more patrolling of entire 20% dispute compared to IA.

Perhaps you still do not understand. India patrolled many parts of the 20%. This patrolling increased to a certain threshold at which point PLA decided in Jan 2020 that they had to act to prevent India from gaining de facto control over many part of this 20% remaining dispute.

PLA has blocked Indian patrols in 1990 just like 2007 and 2017. India has blocked PLA patrols in years before 2020 as well. The fact that both sides conducted some patrolling and intercepting of patrols doesn't weigh into the causes of the flare up in 2020. However, the frequency and extent of patrols along with troops present within 20% did weigh in on the flare up.

There is no video proving PLA wasn't present in F4 back in 2018. It most likely did not because India lost its mind when PLA occupied up to F4 in 2020. Road construction to F5 was indeed an escalation on China's part as it performed the same method India wanted to use on China to gain control, that being, increasing presence, building up permanent and temporary positions and structures. What set off this recent one was India's attempt at doing exactly this. Compared to a road built when? 2000s? India has built bridges recently did it not?

India patrolling F4 to F8 land to the north is what was unacceptable. F4 to F8 is a line right? Indian troops increased patrolled disputed 20% like you have said. With a vehicle obstacle at F4, doesn't mean Indian troops didn't patrol the shaded area.

View attachment 76051

India's General while this was an ongoing issue (he left and changed office during) is on record stating "China had transgressed many times over the years with its own perception of the LAC. “Similarly, none of you come to know how many times we have transgressed as per our perception. Chinese media does not cover it,” Gen. Singh said.

“Let me assure you, if China has transgressed 10 times, we must have done it at least 50 times,” he added."

Referring to the shaded section of land more or less the 20% (a great chunk of it), India conducted patrols too often for China to feel secure. India's minister and PM both publicly expressed desire to take Aksai Chin, a stretch of land east of this shaded disputed area.

It makes sense for China to respond with increased Indian belligerence and military presence.

Most of the areas you shaded do not even have differences in psrception, which is why there were no standoffs there. I have no idea why you consider that vast area disputed when most of it isn't even disputes. And most of that area encompasses high mountains with no effective passes for patrols.

Your word salad failed to address the possibility that PLA was blocking the Indian Army from patrolling some areas of the dispute such as Pangong and Depsang. And yes, PLA was present at finger 4 in pangong in the form of patrols. And common sense indicates that if PLA was responding to Indian patrols there for many years, PLA must have besn patrolling at least as much. Why wouldn't PLA block India from patrolling disputed land when it had the oppurtunity to do so?

The 2017 incident got more attention because of the Doklam standoff at the time, but there were many similar incidents within the past decade alone all at finger 4. So the video can be considered the norm at Pangong even if such confrontations never went reported.

And I don't know how many times I have said that India was within and is still within the disputed areas. In fact there are still areas within the 20% where India patrols far more than China because of terrain advantages. I have never denied Indian presence there, while you have completely denied Chinese presence before 2020.

ougoah · Aug 12, 2021

twineedle said:
Most of the areas you shaded do not even have differences in psrception, which is why there were no standoffs there. I have no idea why you consider that vast area disputed when most of it isn't even disputes. And most of that area encompasses high mountains with no effective passes for patrols.

Your word salad failed to address the possibility that PLA was blocking the Indian Army from patrolling some areas of the dispute such as Pangong and Depsang. And yes, PLA was present at finger 4 in pangong in the form of patrols. And common sense indicates that if PLA was responding to Indian patrols there for many years, PLA must have besn patrolling at least as much. Why wouldn't PLA block India from patrolling disputed land when it had the oppurtunity to do so?

The 2017 incident got more attention because of the Doklam standoff at the time, but there were many similar incidents within the past decade alone all at finger 4. So the video can be considered the norm at Pangong even if such confrontations never went reported.

And I don't know how many times I have said that India was within and is still within the disputed areas. In fact there are still areas within the 20% where India patrols far more than China because of terrain advantages. I have never denied Indian presence there, while you have completely denied Chinese presence before 2020.

The shaded area represents the disputed territory in its entirety. Along any points within that shaded area there are potential for disputes and patrols. I never said Indians or Chinese patrol every inch of that shaded area. It is to show you visually what I mean when I keep having to refute your favourite "there's a block on F4 so there's no way Indians patrol beyond F4".

PLA block Indian patrols on occasion. PLA doesn't block every single Indian patrol. It manages to block some Indian patrols. I expect the reverse to also be true with not 100% of PLA patrols blocked by Indian Army.

Yeah. That's the part they're negotiating now. India's agreed to buffer on Pangong and now Gogra but remains in disputed areas. I don't know who patrols more now but my guess would be Indians have more positions and presence within the remaining areas that have not been converted into a buffer zone.

Why do you insist on making false claims? Where did I deny China didn't have presence in any of this disputed land before 2020? Do you have to straight up lie to make your arguments and twist your arguments after you've been corrected and lost the discussions?

twineedle · Aug 12, 2021

ougoah said:
China's PLA blocked India from going past finger 4 AFTER at least March or April. The news didn't even come out until around May. Modi wouldn't even talk or admit to this confrontation (because he didn't know how to play this unpredicted path) until after May and June fighting made the severity obvious enough for Modi's opposition to scream about it twenty times a day.

So before PLA occupied and captured F8 to F4, India at least patrolled other parts of the disputed land if not also F4 onwards because there was no PLA occupation of F8 to F4 at that time. Indian troops could patrol on foot and to be honest this is the main method and they could access F4 and east through northern access points which are well within disputed 20%.

You clearly implied here that PLA was only blocking Indian patrols since April 2020. However there is video evidence of that happening long before that. As I said, that incident was the norm for what regularly happened for decades but only got attention due to tensions from Doklam.

And given the challenges indian soldiers faced patrolling the dingsr 4 track, I don't know why you think they would attempt an even less efficient trek through the Pangong range that has even more chokepoints. Then again you have a limited understanding of the geography. So I understand hour confusion.

China's road building in disputed areas near geographical chokepoints speaks for itself. All the evidence clearly indicates that China was patrolling far more in Pangong Tso and Gogra, until it was forced to step back after the disengagement agreement.

ougoah · Aug 12, 2021

twineedle said:
You clearly implied here that PLA was only blocking Indian patrols since April 2020. However there is video evidence of that happening long before that

You're wrong. I advise you to reread things. I know there are lots of words but complexity usually involve words to describe accurately. The world isn't "India stronk Jai hind!"

I said consistently (never deviating) that PLA intercepts Indian patrols like in the video you showed from 2017. PLA prevents Indian troops from patrolling where they can. They cannot stop and intercept every Indian patrol. In 2017, during Doklam crisis, Indians patrolled this disputed area and I bet PLA did too. Many videos show the two sides meeting and often shows one side holding banners asking the other side to leave a disputed area both claim.

Now I don't know why you need to avoid the VK Singh comment on India performing at least 5 times as many patrols during a given time period. I guess you originally wanted to claim China patrols more but only pro-India Indians keep saying this when all the more objective and valid evidence proves that India is the one who conducted more patrols, to a degree that concerned China enough to put the PLA into occupying F8 to F4 and parts of Galwan around April and May 2020.

PLA only blocking Indian patrols since April 2020? You are not just performing verbal diarrhea here. Do you mean since 2017? PLA occupied it around April May 2020 so I guess yeah that does block Indians from patrolling but that's separate to the matter of patrols being done and intercepted by both sides prior to 2020.

ougoah · Aug 12, 2021

@twinneedle. What you are trying to do is use a 2017 video of two sides on the disputed land. This was before April 2020 when PLA occupied F8 to F4. Back in 2017 PLA did not occupy F8 to F4. BTW maybe it also needs to be said unless you twist stuff again, India also did not occupy it. Both sides patrolled unknown parts of the disputed 20%. This much you also agree with. Can you also agree then that there is a possibility that China simply did not want India patrolling so much because possibly India did patrol so much that it represented as a attempt at salami slicing the 20%? The response from China was to occupy F8 to F4 from April 2020 to around December when final disengagement was performed.

If PLA already occupied F8 to F4, and I'm not sure if this is part of your aim to make it seem like PLA was always there, then I ask you why PLA's presence in F8 to F4 was so troubling to India only in 2020? When they could have been controlling F8 to F4 since 2017 or 2018?

twineedle · Aug 12, 2021

ougoah said:
You're wrong. I advise you to reread things. I know there are lots of words but complexity usually involve words to describe accurately. The world isn't "India stronk Jai hind!"

I said consistently (never deviating) that PLA intercepts Indian patrols like in the video you showed from 2017. PLA prevents Indian troops from patrolling where they can. They cannot stop and intercept every Indian patrol. In 2017, during Doklam crisis, Indians patrolled this disputed area and I bet PLA did too. Many videos show the two sides meeting and often shows one side holding banners asking the other side to leave a disputed area both claim.

Now I don't know why you need to avoid the VK Singh comment on India performing at least 5 times as many patrols during a given time period. I guess you originally wanted to claim China patrols more but only pro-India Indians keep saying this when all the more objective and valid evidence proves that India is the one who conducted more patrols, to a degree that concerned China enough to put the PLA into occupying F8 to F4 and parts of Galwan around April and May 2020.

PLA only blocking Indian patrols since April 2020? You are not just performing verbal diarrhea here. Do you mean since 2017? PLA occupied it around April May 2020 so I guess yeah that does block Indians from patrolling but that's separate to the matter of patrols being done and intercepted by both sides prior to 2020.

no the patrol blocking had been going on since well before 2017. It just got more attention on 2017 due to the Doklam standoff.

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