Ladakh Flash Point

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twineedle

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"Indian Army’s occupation of three hilltops claimed by Chinese on the south bank of Pangong Lake is what has riled up China after People’s Liberation Army (PLA) troops enhanced deployment close to India’s Thakung base and made attempts to change status quo.

While China has accused India of crossing the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the Indian Army has denied this."

Which three hilltops is it referring to? I'm assuming those Indian ones magar gurung so on. China was riled up by east reqin intrusion (assumed to be different to this and separated by at least going east of Black and Helmet Tops) and by India opening up the southern front. If you want to interpret Indian moves onto Indian peaks as riling up China, it is only in the sense that China did not want the southern front opened up. Instead it is the intrusion east of Black Top and Helmet that riled China up because it is considered China proper and losing that to the Indians would indeed be a piece of bargaining power for India. India holding onto those Indian peaks is not. India would not "capture" its own peaks to negotiate with China.

India occupying those western ones (map below) is not going to rile China up any more than India occupying F3 and ridges north of F4 when PLA was on the edge of F4. These western points are west of PLA positions at their most forward deployment.

View attachment 73902

Outside of India's "capturing" of these points which btw are themselves on the absolute edge of the Chinese claim line, it is the indian intrusion much further east (east of Chinese peaks) that is the main source of complaint and what the CCP reported on. India taking these peaks is like India taking F3. China's preference of LAC in the south runs through the western red line while the Indian preference of it runs through the eastern one. These peaks are not on China's side.
The Eastern is India's claim, not Lac. The western line is india's perception of the LAC. China's perception runs further west near the Chushul valley.
 

ougoah

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The Eastern is India's claim, not Lac. The western line is india's perception of the LAC. China's perception runs further west near the Chushul valley.

Sure, it does like India's perception here runs far further east than the right most line. I'm inclined to believe that China has no reason to have reported on Indian "capture" of its own peaks as if it is an intrusion because PLA was never there and there was no confrontation or occupying from PLA. China no doubt disliked India opening up the southern front and rushed to Black Top and Helmet Top AFTER India and in response to southern front opening up ... by India since PLA wasn't a step beyond Black Top and Helmet Top and didn't even go there until August at the earliest.
 

Xizor

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Satellite imagery confirms that PLA has moved back from Hot Springs.
Wasn't this discussed a month back?

About what you insist where Hot Springs is and how there is a distinction between Gogra and Hot Springs has to be made?

The article itself says that China may had to "recalibrate" due to the winter.
 

manqiangrexue

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"
"Six new major hill features have been captured by our troops, including the Magar Hill, Gurung Hill, Rezang La, Rachana La, Mokhpari and the biggest peak on the Finger 4 ridgeline," top government sources told India Today TV.

The heights, that are spread from the southern to the northern bank of Pangong Tso lake, have given India an edge over the Chinese in the ongoing conflict in specific areas, sources said.

They also said that the tussle between the two armies to occupy the dormant heights along the LAC began after August 29 when the Chinese tried to sit on heights south of Thakung area near the southern bank of Pangong Tso.

The foiling of the Chinese Army's attempts to occupy the heights led to firing in air from the northern bank of Pangong Tso to the southern bank of the lake, at least on three occasions.


The sources clarified that the Black Top and the Helmet Top hill features are on the Chinese side of the LAC, while the heights occupied
by the Indian side are in Indian territory. Now, the Chinese Army has deployed around 3,000 additional troops of its combined arms brigade, including its infantry and armoured troops, near the Rezang La and Rechen La heights."

There is a pretty big difference in perception of the LAC in South Pangong just like in the North, as shown by Dr. Fravel.


Another good article describing the advantage India gained over China as a result of the South Pangong ops:
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Indians when they stand on random unoccupied hills without self-inflicted casualties: "We captured several major heights and beat the PLA to them, thwarting China again."

Indians when Chinese soldiers literally climb a hill and beat them into a scattered retreat: "We never intended to be there; that territory is unimportant and all our military sources including several generals agree. We have failed to defend nothing because we never wanted it anyway."
 

twineedle

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Wasn't this discussed a month back?

About what you insist where Hot Springs is and how there is a distinction between Gogra and Hot Springs has to be made?

The article itself says that China may had to "recalibrate" due to the winter.
Fortunately, the article makes the distinction quite clear.
 

Xizor

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Fortunately, the article makes the distinction quite clear.
Indeed. It makes it clear that it is due to Winter.

Many of the stuff you post right now are from 2020. What's the deal with it? I guess its another attempt to elicit some reaction.

Post newer stuff. We can discuss.
 

twineedle

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Indeed. It makes it clear that it is due to Winter.

Many of the stuff you post right now are from 2020. What's the deal with it? I guess its another attempt to elicit some reaction.

Post newer stuff. We can discuss.
That was from spring of 2021. Check the dates.

More importantly, the article clearly shows the general location of the hot spring standoff area
It also shows that China failed to shift the LAC at Hot Springs, just like it failed to do so at Galwan. In both sectors, China had to step back while India moved closer to its perception of the LAC. Amb. Bambawale specifically refers to this ground reality when he says the Indian Army thwarted China.
 
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Xizor

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Is this person Anti-Modi?

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He added: “But whatever gains they may have made, whatever objectives they have achieved, I don’t think the Chinese are going to give them up and I don’t think India can change its position that there should be restoration of status quo ante and therefore you see the process getting elongated and lengthy as both side try to see what they can do to move ahead.”

Very insightful statement.
 

twineedle

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Is this person Anti-Modi?

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He added: “But whatever gains they may have made, whatever objectives they have achieved, I don’t think the Chinese are going to give them up and I don’t think India can change its position that there should be restoration of status quo ante and therefore you see the process getting elongated and lengthy as both side try to see what they can do to move ahead.”

Very insightful statement.
Good job cherry picking. In that article, he said the Indian Army thwarted China. An example being how PLA retreated from Hot Springs, as shown by India Today.

He has also refuted the claims of Ajai Shukla in seperate interviews.
 
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