Ladakh Flash Point

twineedle said:

All I know is that for several decades, India has not claimed past the 1962 status quo, also knows as the de facto lac. This is clearly shown in google and in every indian media source, other than Ajai Shukla's vlog. I think it is possible that things were slightly different in Brig RJS: time

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That means 1970s and 1980s?

He patrolled during those times.

My question stands -

You speculate India pulled back and limited patrols to Y junction after 1993 agreement.
Don't you think, since peace has eroded, India should resume patrols to the LAC as followed by that Troop Commander in 1979?

And I have to add -

Don't you think Ajai Shukla isn't wrong? You mentioned that you speculate on a possibility that India pulled back and shifted pp14. Where exactly is Ajai Shukla wrong if India indeed pulled back from old LAC?

Go on.

The LAC is pretty clear and is not even disputed by India

And according to the map, the river bend(which has always been pp14 for at least several decades) is about 5 km from the mouth. So corroborating Col. RJS' testimony.

Come on, answer the question @twineedle , if you consider 'retreating' from the edge of your LAC as losing, do you consider the 1962 war when china retreated voluntarily as far back as 20 kilometers away to be a win for india? Or should you start to use your brain to understand the nuances in every voluntary withdrawal, especially with regards to long-term strategy and functionality?

The 2020 clash is very similar to the 1962 war. China taught you a lesson, and then voluntarily withdraw itself. If you can grasp the reason why China won 1962, you should be able to understand why China won in 2020, shouldn't you?

twineedle said:

The LAC is pretty clear and is not even disputed by India

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Google is banned in china, and I see no reason why you keep debating this when I already told you that China considered the junction to be ours. Don't like it? Try to contest it then, let's see if you can do better than the pathetic performance from you in June 15.

What an eyesore. Google maps!.

"I have been there … I am very clear about that.”​

He adds:

1. Indian Army’s patrolling point (patrolling limit), known as PP14 since the 90s, lies 5 to 6 kilometres from the confluence of Shyok and Galwan rivers. He says this estuary is the ideal strongpoint on our side, for the MLR (main line of resistance), after we have withdrawn to create the “buffer zone”. The terrain and width of the valley beyond the confluence of these two rivers, make any serious combat operation, suicidal.

....

d. Until some time back, Brig Dhillon says, the PLA post was 15 to 20 kilometres upstream from the Galwan estuary. Recently they have pushed ahead their road infrastructure, close to the original LAC. Now they have the capability to surge ahead rapidly, with staggered, line astern, packets of troops, with integral air-defence cover.

wow... this thread is still going at 1post/min?

It's still winter, the armies are taking a break, maybe you guys should too.

lgnxz said:

Following your logic, are you gonna claim that China lose against india in 1962

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Good question. But would you be surprised to find that there are indians who believe exactly that? There are even some textbooks in Indian schools that teach kids that China lost in 1962. Here's a few sources I found with a quick google search:

Mohsin77 said:

wow... this thread is still going at 1post/min?

It's still winter, the armies are taking a break, maybe you guys should too.



Good question. But would you be surprised to find that there are indians who believe exactly that? There are even some textbooks in Indian schools that teach kids that China lost in 1962. Here's a few sources I found with a quick google search:

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In modern

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, the term the "Ah Q mentality" (阿Q精神, "Ā Q jīngshén") is used commonly as a term of mockery to describe someone who chooses not to face up to reality and deceives himself into believing he is successful, or has unjustified beliefs of superiority over others. It describes a narcissistic individual who rationalizes every single actual failure he faces as a psychological triumph ("spiritual victory"). A phrase meaning "relax for a bit" or "take it easy" (阿Q一下, Ā Q yí xià) has also surfaced in modern

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due to the character's nonchalant nature.

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Once India has a proper revolution they should make this novel mandatory reading for all the school kids.

President Nixon on Indians

Mohsin77 said:

wow... this thread is still going at 1post/min?

It's still winter, the armies are taking a break, maybe you guys should too.



Good question. But would you be surprised to find that there are indians who believe exactly that? There are even some textbooks in Indian schools that teach kids that China lost in 1962. Here's a few sources I found with a quick google search:

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They learn all this and do what exactly? Some malnourished children learning India defeated China in 1962 isn't of significance to China or the larger world.

siegecrossbow said:

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Once India has a proper revolution they should make this novel mandatory reading for all the school kids.

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The only revolution they beget is either religious one or one caused by poverty and social upheaval.

jfy1155 said:

President Nixon on Indians

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But people over there are their best friends. I can't grasp the mindset.

lgnxz said:

Come on, answer the question @twineedle , if you consider 'retreating' from the edge of your LAC as losing, do you consider the 1962 war when china retreated voluntarily as far back as 20 kilometers away to be a win for india? Or should you start to use your brain to understand the nuances in every voluntary withdrawal, especially with regards to long-term strategy and functionality?

The 2020 clash is very similar to the 1962 war. China taught you a lesson, and then voluntarily withdraw itself. If you can grasp the reason why China won 1962, you should be able to understand why China won in 2020, shouldn't you?

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lgnxz - this is a very good illustration for him to reflect on his logic.

LST said:

lgnxz - this is a very good illustration for him to reflect on his logic.

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He's reeling from the statements of that RJS retired soldier. Give him some time to study how to spin it. I'm sure he'll brand him as unreliable too.

@lgnxz

However, we have another catch regarding how the situation evolved. Seems like after India abandoned its previous PP14, it considered Y junction as the new one. But it seems to have been left without a permanent post (merely a patrol point).

PLA removed the tents India built. There seems to have been a difference in perception. India resuming patrols (to the old PP14) by setting up tents at the new PP14 (at the curve) would've been interpreted by China as trying to encroach further.