Ladakh Flash Point

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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
1-2 Why would India escalate the situation by crossing the LAC(which it never disputed in the area) to try and attack Chinese posts of that sides? If anything you should be asking why the PLA failed to evict Indaian positions from areas within China's claim line.

Disengagement began in Got Springs aready began back in June.


Glad you are finally admitting China failed to change the LAC
Disengagement means no patrols past Gogra to the traditional patrol points east.

You are beating an imaginary bush here.

Chinese posts and Indian posts are within their own traditional positions. No one claims China built a post within what was India's perception of LAC region.

But PLA troops have stopped patrols of India past certain points. As this is a case of denying patrols, only a resumption of full patrols to the regions traditionally patrolled can be deemed a "win" (I'd term that as simply the status quo).


But so far that isn't the case.

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February 22,2021

no significant new ground was achieved between the two sides regarding the friction points of Patrolling Point 15 (PP15) in Hot Springs, PP17A in Gogra Post

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February 13,2021.

The Indian Army’s patrolling activity has also been affected in Gogra and Hot Springs, where rival troops are forward deployed and where skeletal disengagement took place last year


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February 18,2021
Chinese troops had crossed the LAC in four other parts last year. Those were in Gogra Post at Patrolling Point 17A (PP17A) and Hot Springs area near PP15, both of which are close to each other....



Satellite images don't track patrols. Mechanized units? Maybe. Posts? Maybe. (real statuses remain hidden though).


India can indeed say "we thwarted China" only by resumption of patrols to traditional patrol points. But as long as that doesn't happen, a case similar to Depsang will be present.

So this person -
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hasn't erred, contrary to your claims.

China simply left at a partial disengagement (thinning of troops) but insists on complete disengagement (which points to not stopping a indian Patrols way past PP15 and PP17A) by offering a buffer zone of 1 km. India doesn't agree because it is within traditional patrol zone of India.
 

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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Another good image shows China's forward post in Gogra just after it was built in May last year. Once again, it has been geolocated to about 15 km from India's Gogra post, or roughly 10 km from the lac.
Point being?
There is a way India can stop China from stopping Indian patrols. Simply destroy that Chinese post past PP19, PP20.

There is also mechanized infantry units of China. Along with Artillery support from mountains just behind.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
This image exactly matches the map created by Bhijit Iyer nearly a year go. And Iyer used Google Earth. Are you saying Google got the Lac wrong? lol

Please provide conclusive evidence of Shukla's claims, beccause so far you have not been able to present any.
I don't know who bhijit iyer is. From what you suggest, he seems to be an officer at Google Maps India, the official border delineator of India.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
I don't mind watching some banter and debate on this thread. But seriously, this "finger & lines" debate show with @twineedle is getting boring. We had like, I don't know how many pages of back and forth between @twineedle and multiple members.

It always works like this: @twineedle puts some outdated maps, unverified maps, and some third party tweets. Says that China has conceded more than India, so India won! Yay! Other members respond with their own arguments and evidence. @twineedle ignores them and posts the same things over and over again. This is actually one type of trolling. Unlike typical trolls, @twineedle makes some personal arguments here and there. But his overall MO is to flood this thread with his garbage.

@twineedle. Contrary to what you think. I would still like to have you around in this thread. You are not the typical insulting Indian troll. We could use a little banter and some conflicting views from the Indian side. SDF has values. As long as it is not trolling, racist, or insulting. Your Anti-China views are tolerated here. So I would urge you to agree to disagree with the other members in this forum, celebrate your Indian victory, and move on. Now. Otherwise, I'm gonna accuse you of actually trolling this forum.

The Ladakh Flashpoint thread indeed has much politics and banter going on in it. But I have still picked up much valuable news and information from this thread about the Ladakh standoff. Some of them for months before international news confirmed them. It's a pity that some of the news and fun facts are being drowned out by the @twineedle "finger & lines" debate show.
 
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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
I don't mind watching some banter and debate on this thread. But seriously, this finger & line debate show with @twineedle is getting boring. We had like, I don't know how many pages of back and forth between @twineedle and multiple members.

It always works like this: @twineedle puts some outdated maps, unverified maps, and some third party tweets. Says that China has conceded more than India, so India won! Yay! Other members respond with their own arguments and evidence. @twineedle ignores them and posts the same things over again. This is the very definition of trolling. Unlike typical Indian trolls @twineedle makes some personal arguments here and there. But his overall MO is to flood this thread with more of his garbage.

@twineedle. Contrary to what you think. I would still like to have you around in this thread. You are not the typical insulting Indian troll. We could use a little banter and some conflicting views from the Indian side. SDF has much better values than the IDF. As long as it is not trolling, racist, or insulting. Anti-China views are tolerated here. So I would urge you to agree to disagree with the other members in this forum, celebrate your Indian victory, and move on. Now. Otherwise, I'm gonna accuse you of trolling this forum.

The Ladakh Flashpoint thread indeed has much politics and banter going on in it. But I have still picked up much valuable news and information from this thread about the Ladakh standoff. Some of them for months before international news confirmed them. It's a pity that some of the news and fun facts are being drowned out by the @twineedle finger & lines debate show.
Still better than this thread devolving into Geopolitics, SCS, Pakistan, USA, Bhutan etc.

I think, in India, there is a case of extreme politicization of topics as well as partisanship that is not so different from certain countries that pins itself "shining city atop the hill" badge.

So therefore, media houses, authors and even military officers (retired or otherwise) are quick to be tagged anti-particular faction or party. What more, there is a requirement of adhering to recognized media sources for each party /ideology.

Interacting with some members give an insight into the media sources and narratives that influence them as well as their policial factions.

I really want the Ladakh thread to stay silent. What I don't want is brouhaha about some crafted winning or losing. More than ready to accept Chinese drawbacks and failures, if any proved irrefutably .
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
Still better than this thread devolving into Geopolitics, SCS, Pakistan, USA, Bhutan etc.

I think, in India, there is a case of extreme politicization of topics as well as partisanship that is not so different from certain countries that pins itself "shining city atop the hill" badge.

So therefore, media houses, authors and even military officers (retired or otherwise) are quick to be tagged anti-particular faction or party. What more, there is a requirement of adhering to recognized media sources for each party /ideology.

Interacting with some members give an insight into the media sources and narratives that influence them as well as their policial factions.

I really want the Ladakh thread to stay silent. What I don't want is brouhaha about some crafted winning or losing. More than ready to accept Chinese drawbacks and failures, if any proved irrefutably .
I agree with interacting with some members. That's why I don't mind having @twineedle and @Kakyan lurking around this forum. We have learned quite abit about the Indian POV, Indian party line, and the psyche of the Jai Hinds from these guys.

Off course we need to correct the lies from these trolls. But there comes a time where it starts to become counter-productive. It is always more efficient for the trolls to repost the same lies over and over again than for the more learned people to counter their lies. That's why trolls are banned in forums and comment sections.

That being said. I had always believed that China had won the Ladakh standoff with India. China had not gotten every inch of its territory back, but its still a significant milestone. Still, China is not gloating over India with this victory. Imagine what India would do if the roles were reversed. That's the difference of the maturity of these two countries. One run is by men, the other, by boys.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
This was reported in Indian news.
Hope they aren't Anti-Modi party and a "verified" and "certified" source.

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Situated at a distance of about 24 km opposite India’s highest airstrip Daulet Beg Oldie (DBO) in Ladakh, PLA’s Tianwendian post is an all-season post in Aksai Chin.

The post was established after the 1962 war and has seen consistent upgrades over the past few years.

The latest imagery suggests that its main building has seen
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since August 2020.


Indian patrols have been blocked here by PLA in the Y junction area as the Chinese have intruded 18 km inside since 2013.

Regular patrols to patrol points 10,11, 11A, 12 and 13 have been blocked due to the impasse.
 

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ougoah

Brigadier
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So India's own four star general says that for every 10 PLA patrols into dispute, IA would have conducted more than 50.

Now IA has no access to conduct those patrols after agreement settled. PLA happy to move back from the land it occupied (FORWARD POSITION! IT NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO LOSE HERE) when India agreed to release claims in all but what is now an even more superficial formality.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
It’s pointless trying to have a rational mature discussion with Jai Hind trolls. If the PLA forward deploy and occupy all Chinese claimed land, they go crying to all and sundry about being bullied and victimised; If the PLA pull back per negotiated agreements, they go chest thumping about how China couldn’t occupy its own land.

Never mind that China literally just demonstrated beyond all possible doubt that it can occupy all its claimed territory for as long as it wants and there isn’t a single thing UberPower India can do about it, by staying throughout the winter, and staying in style in solar powered heated modern barracks playing video games and eating hotpot while Indian Jawas sat in thin tents and froze their balls off.

If it could be bothered, China can just sit on its positions for a few years and pass the guazi as they watch the Indian Jawas revolt at the prospect of more time in those awful conditions.

But the primary rationale for China agreeing a mutual pull back and the creation of a buffer zone is because it really doesn’t want to waste time and energy beating back the Indians every few weeks.

The only reason China hasn’t curbstomp India again already is because it really isn’t worth China’s time and effort to do so.

But there is only so much BS China can tolerate, and it absolutely will not stand for India salami slicing escalation to make violence and deaths becoming a regular occurrence on the boarder.

If India think it can sap Chinese will with such petty tricks, they fundamentally misunderstand the Chinese mindset. Such provocations will absolutely lead to another 62, which is why China agreed to disengage, as they know India better than it knows itself, and know that poor disciple and nationalist chest thumping by the Indian media and government will filter down to frontline troops making escalated violence and upgraded Chinese responses an almost certainty if both sides remain so closely poised once spring arrives and the Indian Jawas manage to dig themselves out of their snow prisons. India just isn’t worth the Chinese bullets.
 
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