Ladakh Flash Point

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Sardaukar20

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As an alternative India would want a repeat of 1971, except this time the target is West Pakistan instead of East Pakistan ( now Bangladesh) and the USA is India's "Soviet Union ".
A US "cocked fist " on China in the SCS, and US electronic data control, early warning systems and advanced weapons will ensure China does not help Pakistan.
The USA will avenge its defeat in Afghanistan and India will get Kashmir and most of Northern Pakistan including severance of the CPEC.
The object is to force China into a choice in protecting its productive eastern coastline or protecting CPEC and Pakstan from India, It is assumed that as in 1971 China will be pragmatic.
That's a lot of grand strategy for BJP leaders to handle. I think the explanation is much simpler. India picked a fight with a superpower, then realises its no match. So India is desperate to find another superpower to partner with to gang up on China. Russia is no longer available, because China is more important to them than India.

So enter the USA, the biggest professional scam artist of today. They sing a serenade to the Indian leaders and its done. India so willingly sold its soul to the devil.
 

Bright Sword

Junior Member
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Here's a different question: How has it worked since it was written, in the 3rd century BCE?
Chanakyaniti is not intended to replace military competence, valor, or expertise in weapons manufacture and deployment. India has always been behind the rest of the world in these matters. Indians were using chariots against the Greeks long after the world had moved to mounted cavalry, and India never developed seige engines or gunpowder. These were imports brought by Turko-Afghans. Chanakyaniti is intended to provide a low cost alternative to a limited military objective. It was used to displace the Greeks from Western India after it was conquered and occupied by Alexander. The strategy did not work with the Turko-Afghans when an attempt was made to forge an alliance with the Mongols. It worked later by an alliance with the British against the Mughals in 1857, but failed to deliver an intact India to Brahmanical rule when India got partitioned in 1947.
How many of those centuries did India spend as a conquered entity? The city in which this 'grand Indian strategist' was born, isn't even in India anymore.
(It's in the still-conquered territory of Pakistan, near where I was born :p)
Pakistan's mere existence is a perpetual reminder of their failure.
Agree. But the Indians view the establishment of Bangladesh as an example of Chanakyaniti when Indian planes dropped leaflets over Dhaka proclaiming no enmity to the people there. The fact that India's Border Security Force shoots around 2000 Bangladeshi
civilians by sniper fire each year is telling how the Chanakyaniti works.
This is why they will never play nice with us. Even many Pakistanis don't understand this fact, and they continue to want 'peace' with India, which has never reciprocated our gestures, starting with the moment of independence in 1947, where they immediately screwed us over (like literally on Day Zero.)
Correct. A section of Pakistanis don't understand this and are swayed by cultural and linguistic affinity ( though fast diminishing) into preferring India over China. India's cultural Chanakyaniti projected by "Track 2" movements such as Aman ki Asha (Trans." Desire for Peace" ) is lethal.
And why? Because of their own emotional insecurity. It is not something to be reasoned with. It is an irrationally neurotic pathology. This is the perennial problem of 'Indian' identity. They try to look back and find some glorious history to coalesce a basis of identity, but can't come up with anything truly unifying. If they were smart, they would use this historical opportunity (post '47) to form some new identity from scratch, and to their credit, they did try (some weird fusion of 'hindu'+communist+democratic curry dish), but it didn't work out so well, so now, the likes of nazi-inspired BJP/RSS are going backwards, to revive something that has already proven to be a total failure. This is why I think 'India' has no future as a unified political entity.
Chanakyaniti can be defeated.
China is well aware of the problem, With no offense intended but the weakest link in China's alliance is Pakistan riven with sectarian and religious conflict.
Until Pakistan sheds its fake cultural and linguistic affinity to its enemy and pivots to genuine secularism and ultimately atheism there is a grave danger of unraveling.
Worst of all this has implications on China's security.
The gist of the US- India alliance is a message to India:
Fix Pakistan. We will hold China off your back.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
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Until Pakistan sheds its fake cultural and linguistic affinity to its enemy and pivots to genuine secularism and ultimately atheism there is a grave danger of unraveling.

... you have no idea what you're talking about. 'Genuine secularism' and Atheism will NEVER be adopted in Pakistan, God willing. I can give you a very long lecture on this subject and refer you to some sources, but it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Let this suffice instead: your proposed solution is incorrect and unwanted.

Pakistan riven with sectarian and religious conflict.

That's mostly just your own biases, which are preventing you from paying attention and truly understanding the situation you are attempting to lecture on. We are more united today then we were even 20 years ago at the start of the 'war on terror.' The tribal belt has been pacified, Afghanistan is under our influence again (so our Western flank is secure), and the political leadership is firmly in grips of the PTI, which is being guided by the security establishment. Internally, the opposition is so weak that they can't even manage to convince their own support base and are constantly begging for mercy, and the corrupt mullahs still can't win any actual political power.

India's cultural Chanakyaniti projected by "Track 2" movements such as Aman ki Asha (Trans." Desire for Peace" ) is lethal.

It's 'lethal' only to India itself. Take a look around. The entire rest of the Subcontinent hates India, and their own 'cultural' policies are now destroying their own society as well. You give their machinations way too much credit. No one else is impressed (not even the Americans, who are stuck with India because of a lack of better options.)

Worst of all this has implications on China's security.
The gist of the US- India alliance is a message to India:
Fix Pakistan. We will hold China off your back.

... rite, maybe the US should first try stopping its own collapse before 'holding back' China. Great strategy by India, which just jumped on a sinking ship. That's like buying a ticket for the Titanic after it hits the iceberg... I guess that's their 'Chanakyaniti' at work.
 
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Bright Sword

Junior Member
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China's diplomatic advantage over India vis-a-vis it's neighbors,

Not having the financial or economic clout to be offer any solid benefits of friendship India usually resorts to softer options.
1. With China India has NO soft diplomatic options. There is no "hostage " population, "cultural" or religious affinity with China. India's minuscule ethnic Chinese population has mostly migrated out.
India's " Islamic" sympathy for China's minority doesn't generate much traction given the fact that the lynch mobs rule the nation. So too is the case with "Buddhist" affinity. India's animosity to its own Dalit Buddhist population attracting converts and India's partisan treatment of Nepal's Buddhist population is a hypocrisy too obvious to ignore.
India's projection of its "cultural heritage " finds little resonance in China. India has degraded its composite cultural heritage into a Hindu only fascist matrix so there are few takers to a religiously oriented culture.
Thus India has no soft diplomacy options with China .
2. With Pakistan India had long maintained the following diplomatic advantages :
2.1 A threat of denial of visas to the resident population of Indian origin migrant population resident mostly in
Karachi and the creation of a lobby which ultimately morphed into a criminal terrorist outfit. With the aging and passing on of the generation that migrated from India this factor has considerably diminished.
2.2 Medical visas: India has a medical tourism industry of sorts where people come mainly for eye or kidney related surgery, First promoting the medical tourism in Pakistan and then denying the visas used to be a major diplomatic lever. With China assisting Pakistan in setting up surgical units and basic hospitals this leverage has been reduced.
2.3 Religious tourism:
Hold my nose when I say this. At one time a large number of Pakistanis were traveling to India to visit shrines etc, This has completely stopped from the Pakistani side as the religious milieu there has turned away from syncretic beliefs. Pakistan has to some extent turned the tables on India by establishing the Kartarpur corridor but the fact that entry is visa free has robbed Pakistan of most of its advantages.
2.4. Bollywood, Film and TV.
Once India maintained a huge media and cultural advantage over Pakistan.
Shortly after the 1971 war the Indian Army would set up giant open air movie screens on the border facing Pakistan. With large loudspeakers connected they would show movies of a particular content ( Example: Pakeezah, to Pakistani soldiers. This was extremely powerful psy ops which India used due to its linguistic and cultural affinity. So were radio programs beamed into Pakistan.
Pakistan has done a great job neutralizing India here by developing its own TV drama industry and fostering partnerships with Turkish and other TV production groups. In any case as the time goes by both India and Pakistan are in a linguistic transition mode and are less and less able to communicate with one another,
 

Nobonita Barua

Senior Member
Registered Member
pivots to genuine secularism and ultimately atheism there is a
LMAO.
Sorry , but that easily gets the ward of "dumbest thing" you have written in your entire time here probably.

I can't talk about the particular country you have mentioned, but given we have something in common across south asia (minus the islands in indian ocean) & i live in a Muslim majority country, i can tell you right now that's not only off the chart. That's off the planet.
Sectarian violence gets it's way into society mainly due to poverty.
And there is nothing called genuine secularism.

As for atheism, as an agnostic i always find atheism entertaining, trying to convince me with some peculiar science-philosophy cocktail theory when in reality, its just another religion minus the super natural god part. Plain & simple.

If atheism was the magic lamp of progress, i am pretty sure North Korea would have never been in sanction list.

One of the biggest trademark of China's policy has been, it doesn't bother about a country's internal social,cultural or government structure.
We, as outsider, very much prefer China continues that.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
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India's Sun Tsu is the sage Chanakya who wrote the norms of warfare abd diplomacy termed Chanakyaniti.

Per the rules of Chanakyaniti India is trying to have "one way " alliances where the more powerful partner in the alliance is duped into providing support to the junior partner but gets nothing in return. In the past India has successfully followed the Chanakyaniti principle when it signed the Treaty of Friendship and Security with the Soviet Union. In the short run India benefited enormously because the Soviet Union armed India with the state of the art weapons used by its own armed forces , from Mig 25 Foxbats to Foxtrot class submarines.
The Soviet Union directly intervened as India's partner in the 1971 Pakistan Civil War warding off US pressure on India. The Soviet Union sent guided missile cruisers and nuclear submarines to defend India from a punishing strike by a US Navy task force ( 7th Fleet). Soviet personnel manned Tu-16 "Moss" AWACS ensured India maintained air superiority over Pakistan and 30 Soviet armored divisions on the Chinese border as a "cocked fist" ensured China would not come to Pakistan's aid.
India easily won the war on the Eastern front, though Pakistan managed to hold on to its portion of Kashmir in a bloody stalemate in the West.
If the Soviets thought the "mutual" defense treaty was of any benefit to them, they were sadly mistaken. Soviet KGB Major General Kim Philby ( a defector from the British MI-5), and an expert on South Asia had warned the defense staff before the Afghan operations in 1980 that Pakistan must be overrun simultaneously along with Afghanistan if there is to be any chance of success. Kim Philby suggested an invasion of Pakistan from the east by India, even as the Soviet Union would roll into Pakistan's western region across Afghanistan. The Western powers would no longer have a base to manage an anti-Soviet resistance , and India would realize its long cherished dream of taking Pakistan and Kashmir. The Soviet Union would have access to the Arabian Sea and Persian Gulf. China would be contained forever. If the operation was conducted swiftly it would all be over in three weeks like the formation of Bangladesh. It was a good plan with one flaw.
India chickened out and let down the Soviet Union. As long as Pakistan existed controlling Afghanistan was impossible ( a fact that the Americans found out years later).
Kim Philby had suggested postponing the Afghan operations until sufficient forces could be brought to bear for the Soviet Union to take Pakistan alone. This would need significant manpower and the Soviet Union needed Warsaw Pact or Cuban troops. Against Kim Philby's advice the Afghan invasion was launched, and the rest is history.
The Soviet Union collapsed and in another play of Chanakyaniti India switched sides to court the USA though even as late as 1991 when the Soviet Union had all but collapsed India backed the Saddam Husain regime in Iraq during operation Desert
Storm.
Post 9/11 India refused to fight on behalf of the USA both in Afghanistan and Iraq but still got huge favors in trade and arms supplies.
At this time India expects the USA to help it exactly the way the Soviet Union did for three decades. India's only adversary was a weakened and fractured Pakistan.
The difference here is that the stakes are much higher. China is no Pakistan and the USA is no Soviet Union.
Let's see how the Chanakyaniti works this time.
If India envisions another multi-decades long cold war where India can play one side against another, I think they are going down the wrong path. This will not play out like another Soviet/U.S.

1. Economy, China is, after 2020, 70% of the U.S. economy by Currency Exchange. The devaluation of the dollar alone for the next decade, will bring that to parity. Strip away the inflated financial sector and the health sector, which does not help in great power competition, China is already same size as the U.S. PPP, China is 25% larger than the U.S., the true economy is somewhere in between. In the next decade, they can grow their economy at 5-6% while the U.S. will recover to 2019 level maybe in 2023. The factors for China's growth are all inside China, things like robotic density per 10000 population, AI, etc. The U.S. simply don't have a way to intervene to slow their growth. Even the trade war, the centerpiece for Trump, has turned out to be a failure. As long as raw materials keep flowing in, they will be unstoppable. Many of their exports have become irreplaceable at any price. Take the common disposable lighter, they have something like 80% of the market. There is simply no place else one can buy in that quantity even if you are willing to pay 10x the price.

2. Military, both the U.S. @ 4-5% and China @2%, are not spending too much, but the scary thing is how much China got for the much smaller budget compared to the U.S. Their launched military ship tonnage far exceeds the U.S. Even today, they will match the U.S. in ship production once they master nuclear carriers and better subs. They are doing so with alarming speed. In another decade, when they exceed the U.S. economy in currency exchange, China can initiate an arms race that the U.S. will fail to match. Imagine if China were to build 20 CSG. Would the U.S. have the capacity to even build the same if we have the money? Many ships in our fleet are old and direly need replacement. We don't have a civilian ship building industry to create more ship docks.

3. Geo-political. China is not the Soviet Union. Instead of fighting heads on when your power is weaker, they are very restrained in using their power. They are singularly focused on growing their economy and climbing the technological ladder. They try to build relationships with the world, With Europe, with third world countries, with all countries in Middle East, including Israel. Quasi alliance with Russia, Pakistan, North Korea and Iran. There is no firm alliance with any country (except maybe North Korea), so no obligation to fight endless wars. Good luck trying to form an alliance to block their rise. To do so, we will have to go against the self interest of all the countries that deal with them. If the U.S. has a lot of excess money to throw around, many that was an option, but we are broke. Many might scoff at them for not having any alliances. For them to rise, they just need most of the world not to turn against them, a very low and achievable foreign policy goal.

On our side of the Pacific, we will be printing money till the cows come home. Eventually, we will lose our reserved currency status. As Ray Dalio said, this happened a few times in history before, and it signal the end of the empire. Even knowing this, we are powerless to stop our trajectory, as money printing is the most politically expedient thing to do. I think this will happen in the next decade, maybe two tops. Our nation has turned divisive, black against white, rich against poor, left against right. Our colleges are still the best, but turning discoveries into products requires engineering and manufacturing capability that only exists on the other side of the Pacific. As they invest in their colleges, they will increasingly be competitive to ours. What is worse, all our publications, in English is available to China. The reverse is not true, as there are simply not enough technical people that can read Chinese. This one side transparency will, over the longer term, have consequences.

If I were a betting man, I would say in even two decades, the two super powers will begin to evolve into one true super power and the U.S. will begin to focus more inward the become more of a regional power. India, will be on the wrong side of history. The tragedy is, this is all self inflicted. There was no need to thumb their chest at China at the border like they did. China was not interested in border expansion. India could manage their political process without making an enemy out of China, but they did and this is very unfortunate for India in the longer run.
 

Nobonita Barua

Senior Member
Registered Member
2.4. Bollywood, Film and TV.
Once India maintained a huge media and cultural advantage over Pakistan.
Shortly after the 1971 war the Indian Army would set up giant open air movie screens on the border facing Pakistan. With large loudspeakers connected they would show movies of a particular content ( Example: Pakeezah, to Pakistani soldiers. This was extremely powerful psy ops which India used due to its linguistic and cultural affinity. So were radio programs beamed into Pakistan.
That's funny. I didn't know indians made cinema/movie for pakistanis. We here watch those as poor version of western fantasies(Alien warfare, Star trek stuffs). Mostly in remote area where people don't understand English watch those.
What kind of "particular content" indian movies contain to be a "extremely powerful psy ops"? Did they hire mossad? :eek::eek:
 

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's funny. I didn't know indians made cinema/movie for pakistanis. We here watch those as poor version of western fantasies(Alien warfare, Star trek stuffs). Mostly in remote area where people don't understand English watch those.
What kind of "particular content" indian movies contain to be a "extremely powerful psy ops"? Did they hire mossad? :eek::eek:
We are off topic. I was only referring to psy ops on Pakistan because it used to have a vital impact on Sino-Pakistani relationships. This is vital to the CPEC and the Sino-Pakistan alliance.
Psy ops and religion have been used successfully for example to break Roman Catholic Ukraine from Russia, despite deep economic and strategic ties.
My last two cents before I get a rap on the knuckles from the moderators.

On the linguistic affinity, movies etc.
I may be a very slightly more qualified to comment because I have lived, and worked for extended periods in all four countries, and I speak four languages in addition to Bangla of which I have a modest working knowledge of.
Which is why I can also appreciate the psy ops India plays on Bangladeshi troops when they play Dhano Dhanne Pushpe Bora over loudspeakers and the Kolkata radio beams the slogan Banglar Matir Banglar Phol,
Banglar Vayu, Banglar Jol, Dhanne Ho Dhanne Ho, Hey Bhagowan
.
[/I]
 

weig2000

Captain
...

2. Military, both the U.S. @ 4-5% and China @2%, are not spending too much, but the scary thing is how much China got for the much smaller budget compared to the U.S. Their launched military ship tonnage far exceeds the U.S. Even today, they will match the U.S. in ship production once they master nuclear carriers and better subs. They are doing so with alarming speed. In another decade, when they exceed the U.S. economy in currency exchange, China can initiate an arms race that the U.S. will fail to match. Imagine if China were to build 20 CSG. Would the U.S. have the capacity to even build the same if we have the money? Many ships in our fleet are old and direly need replacement. We don't have a civilian ship building industry to create more ship docks.

...

The US actually spends a lot more than what are shown on the official budget. It's likely around 6% of GDP or even more. See
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