Ladakh Flash Point

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ougoah

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As I said it is China in defensive posture because it isn't China that wants to strike India or the US but rather the US and India that want to strike at China. Understand that and know that the instigator and aggressor isn't actually China no matter how much media wants you to believe that line. If a war comes, it would be China being attacked first. The fight that took place in June last year was also Indians using over a hundred men (said and confirmed by both sides) attacking a Chinese position where there were some civilian builders left. PLA obviously had surveillance and sent reinforcements once the Indian attack was noticed. That is how the Indians were captured in the dozens.

Indians first said they were ambushed but the truth came out there were hundred or more Indian soldiers in the fight... that wasn't an ambush. The truth also revealed Indians were armed with riot gear and iron bars and not the unprepared victim Indian media and gov wanted them to be portrayed.

Indians attacked the Chinese position because they consider the presence a violation. But we should realise and remember that this is within the 20% dispute. An area India is also present in. Is it right for PLA to ambush and attack an Indian position it knows is weak and can be outnumbered? That isn't a justification. If that was an example of India attacking a Chinese position within India proper and beyond the dispute, then it could be justified. That event was an Indian attack and unprovoked. If Indians are allowed presence and positions within the 20%, Chinese ones are too. The Indian commanders taking issue with that and taking it upon their own to try and ambush the Chinese position was a strategic and tactical blunder. The issue is this conflict escalated after that.
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

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Kaine said:
I dont know what you would like for China to compromise on.

China from the start of the conflict behaved extremely "business-like". It released the captured Indian soldiers. It didnt try to humiliate India om the public media, unlike India which started slandering China and releasing fake videos.

China also even took the unprecedented step of hiding its own casualties from its own people in order to avoid having the diplomatic talks getting derailed by the public's anger.

China also, as you mentioned, agree with India to disengage from some areas in order to give Indian leaders some breathing room from their own domestic politics.

Xi has repeatedly said that he wants a friendly relationship with India. Instead, India has responded by breaching the Kashmir issue and then attacking Pakistan (Feb 2019?)

India has without cause repeatedly attacked China whenever it had thought that "China" was weak.

In fact I would say that China has treated India so good that it actually gave it courage to provoke and attack China without consequences. It was about time that China seriously slapped back India.

And even now it still took a step back and disengaged from its conquered Indian claimed land.

What more you would like for China to compromise? To break up the alliance with Pakistan? To stop the CPEC program? To become an Indian doormat letting it attack without any consequences and killing Chinese soldiers?

IMO there is more of compromise. India has opened too much its own mouth for China to take a step back. Only compromise will come from Indian's side
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Like I’ve stated many times before the root cause is a difference in culture. China, despite being nominally Communist, is heavily Confucian and the concept of face and “guanxi” or personal relationship is vitally important. By not releasing photos/videos of captured Indian soldiers, the Chinese hoped to save face for the Indians and expected them to reciprocate. These actions are taken to be signs of weaknesses by a non-Confucian culture. It is fascinating that China continues Tom make the same mistake after 1962, 1967, 1988, and even after Doklam.

On a positive note, I think that the Chinese have wisened up to the ground realities. High profile reporting on the Galwan martyrs is indication that they won’t allow further intrusions to go unpunished.
 
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ougoah

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Kaine said:
I dont know what you would like for China to compromise on.

China from the start of the conflict behaved extremely "business-like". It released the captured Indian soldiers. It didnt try to humiliate India om the public media, unlike India which started slandering China and releasing fake videos.

China also even took the unprecedented step of hiding its own casualties from its own people in order to avoid having the diplomatic talks getting derailed by the public's anger.

China also, as you mentioned, agree with India to disengage from some areas in order to give Indian leaders some breathing room from their own domestic politics.

Xi has repeatedly said that he wants a friendly relationship with India. Instead, India has responded by breaching the Kashmir issue and then attacking Pakistan (Feb 2019?)

India has without cause repeatedly attacked China whenever it had thought that "China" was weak.

In fact I would say that China has treated India so good that it actually gave it courage to provoke and attack China without consequences. It was about time that China seriously slapped back India.

And even now it still took a step back and disengaged from its conquered Indian claimed land.

What more you would like for China to compromise? To break up the alliance with Pakistan? To stop the CPEC program? To become an Indian doormat letting it attack without any consequences and killing Chinese soldiers?

IMO there is no more room for compromise. India has opened too much its own mouth for China to take a step back. Only compromise will come from Indian's side
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I agree. I mean a compromise following an Indian one where India stops playing antagonist and working against China in every sphere that doesn't even involve them. China can and should follow that with its own compromise which would be to work with India to settle these disputes without being insistent on turning the remaining 20% either into a buffer or Chinese controlled. And obviously also work with India and Pakistan on any trilateral issues.

India insists on "we want Tibet independence" and the whole let's work with the Quad which is directly and only set up to engage China militarily. It is presented as a force for good to rescue poor SCS from evil Chinese. But the real reason is to engage China in the western pacific and balkanise it. Something that would lead to either their loss or nuclear exchange if it were to actually happen. China would rather turn itself into 100000 x ISIS than balkanise. Before that will come the nuclear exchange.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
siegecrossbow said:
Like I’ve stated many times before the root cause is a difference in culture. China, despite being nominally Communist, is heavily Confucian and the concept of face and “guanxi” or personal relationship is vitally important. By not releasing photos/videos of captured Indian soldiers, the Chinese hoped to save face for the Indians and expected them to reciprocate. These actions are taken to be signs of weaknesses by a non-Confucian culture. It is fascinating that China continues Tom make the same mistake after 1962, 1967, 1988, and even after Doklam.

On a positive note, I think that the Chinese have wisened up to the ground realities. High profile reporting on the Galwan martyrs is indication that they won’t allow further intrusions to go unpunished.
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Like I said before Chinese leaders are too narrow minded and naive and often too magnanimous for their own good. It has resulted in lapse of judgement and downfall in the past.

China needs better and more shrewd leaders. The current crop are just too cunning at playing party politics but useless for the world stage. Personal opinion I know many think otherwise. I don't doubt their performance and planning or organisation of the rest of hte country but when it comes to dealing with foreigners, they need people who know foreigners and lived through it all.
 
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Kaine

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Registered Member
ougoah said:
Like I said before Chinese leaders are too narrow minded and naive and often too magnanimous for their own good. It has resulted in lapse of judgement and downfall in the past.
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The Chinese leaders are very smart and extremely capable. The only issue is the lack of understanding western (+Indian) mindset.

As @siegecrossbow said, when China thinks it made a favour, giving "face" to India, India itself by its Jai Hind mindset thinks that China is afraid of escalation and is then even more emboldened to pressure China as it thinks that China is afraid of it.

I think more Chinese elites should travel around the world and stay there some years in order to get some understanding and exposure on foreign cultures.

Ofc China shouldnt let itself pressured to adopt Western/Indian "values" and "mindset", however it should at least be able to understand how a move it makes on the world stage is understood by the rest of the world.


I will say though, that it is encouraging that this time China means business with India. No more back and forth games. Military bases, and infrastructure is now built to severely punish India if it tries to play any tricks
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

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Staff member
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ougoah said:
Like I said before Chinese leaders are too narrow minded and naive and often too magnanimous for their own good. It has resulted in lapse of judgement and downfall in the past.

China needs better and more shrewd leaders. The current crop are just too cunning at playing party politics but useless for the world stage. Personal opinion I know many think otherwise. I don't doubt their performance and planning or organisation of the rest of hte country but when it comes to dealing with foreigners, they need people who know foreigners and lived through it all.
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The only South Asian expert in China who is worth his salt is Ye Hailin. Others, include many ambassadors to India, not only fall into the Chindi-Chindi Bhai Bhai trap but also prescribe to the Supapowa India theory that is lampooned in all of South Asia, including many Indians themselves. Frankly, it is an enormous embarrassment to populate those posts with so many incompetents.
 
SampanViking

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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Kaine said:
Professionalism of Indian's Army when on the move and its logistics capacity shown in a single picture (assuming it is not a stock photo)

....
View attachment 75094
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Well, looking at trees, grass and fields, makes me suspect this is somewhere at a very much lower altitude than most of the LAC.
Plus location is one thing, date (as others have already alluded) is something else.
 
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