JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[flyboy2008]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

It's not like they divide up the revenue 50/50.

If China manufactures the plane, then whatever net profits that remain after the chinese take their profits is divided up 50/50.

So if the JF17 is sold for 25M, and the cost is 24M including profit margin for the Chinese, then the remaining 1 million is shared by both Pakistan and China.

The same is true also if Pakistan is the manufacturer.

The Engine, the Avionics, the Radar, the weapons has nothing to do with Pakistan by the way.

Pakistans 50%share is for the airframe of the FC1. This is why Pakistan is trying to find Western engines, radars, avionics, and weapons for the JF17. Because all of these sub-systems is not included in the partnership.

It's just the airframe only.

The first batch of JF17s use Chinese avionics, Chinese radar, Chinese weapons, and a Russian engine. Pakistan does not get any share of these subsystems.

But whatever profit is left over from the AIR FRAME, Pakistan gets it's 50% share.

 

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

well right now i say china, but the cost of manufacturing will be a 50/50 split, and the sales will be distrubuted 50/50 to Pakistan and China. Pakistan currently doesnt have the facilities to manufacture fighter technology. They only currently are able to only upgrade and maintenance, but not manufacture or produce.

But the fighter cannot yet be exported until China gets the engine ready and replaces the RD-93 so that it will not violate agreements. Which when that happens i think China should get a larger share of the sales say 60/40. since pakistan didnt contribute to the development of the engine.

well, the engine, the avionics, the radar, the missiles and such are all using Chinese ones. And the parts, it all depends on which factories produce them. If a Pakistani subcontractor is producing it, it will be paid to that one obviously. And if Chinese subcontractor is, then it will be paid. And then, the final assembly will be done in either country and the one that does it will be paid. Pretty simple.

 

[Munir]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

It's not like they divide up the revenue 50/50.

If China manufactures the plane, then whatever net profits that remain after the chinese take their profits is divided up 50/50.

So if the JF17 is sold for 25M, and the cost is 24M including profit margin for the Chinese, then the remaining 1 million is shared by both Pakistan and China.

The same is true also if Pakistan is the manufacturer.

The Engine, the Avionics, the Radar, the weapons has nothing to do with Pakistan by the way.

Pakistans 50%share is for the airframe of the FC1. This is why Pakistan is trying to find Western engines, radars, avionics, and weapons for the JF17. Because all of these sub-systems is not included in the partnership.

It's just the airframe only.

The first batch of JF17s use Chinese avionics, Chinese radar, Chinese weapons, and a Russian engine. Pakistan does not get any share of these subsystems.

But whatever profit is left over from the AIR FRAME, Pakistan gets it's 50% share.

Pakistan builded a factory and is/will be busy with building parts. It is like K8. Some parts of the K8 are only produced in Pakistan... There is for the JF17 a detailled planning of which parts will be produced in China and which in Pakistan. I heard the factory is pretty much finished and there are pics on another forum of it. Surely it wil start with assembling big parts and end with building parts from raw material. But that is exactly the case in major other nations. The plan behind it was to make Pakistan bale to do it without help of other nations. The plan was to move away from being dependend on US/western producers. It worked cause otherwise the block52 were never offered. That is the logic behind 50/50. And just like the K8 there is a bigger chance that parts from Pakistan are more modern then Chinese... Do remind that customers want to have Pakistani K8 and not the Chinese K8... Even if the latter one more optimized with composites. Even Chinese pilots would go for another plane.

Since you all pointed out that the airframe is no high tech then I think Pakistan can handle the production. Defaming it over and over again does not change the reality. And if China does it al then why is their a need for 8 planes doing testing for almost a year in Pakistan? Cause Pakistan provided input in the design, building and testing. Do remind that before JF17 China was busy in copying Mig21F. I do not think that is without foreign help to move towards J10/JF17/Jxx...

There is a clear reason that Pak JF17 will be more modern then the Chinese... Just look at the weapon deals like Brazil or SA. And there is nothing wrong with that. Russia produces a superb plane called SU30 MK. Yet India added a lot more by buying from Israel and France. It does make MKI a better plane then what the Russian had. Naturally the Russians evolves into a better version now...

Reminding about the PG... Pakistan tested it. Altered it and Bangladesh bought the Paksitani version. Do you still think that the original Chinese version was better?

 

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Pakistan builded a factory and is/will be busy with building parts. It is like K8. Some parts of the K8 are only produced in Pakistan... There is for the JF17 a detailled planning of which parts will be produced in China and which in Pakistan. I heard the factory is pretty much finished and there are pics on another forum of it. Surely it wil start with assembling big parts and end with building parts from raw material. But that is exactly the case in major other nations. The plan behind it was to make Pakistan bale to do it without help of other nations. The plan was to move away from being dependend on US/western producers. It worked cause otherwise the block52 were never offered. That is the logic behind 50/50. And just like the K8 there is a bigger chance that parts from Pakistan are more modern then Chinese... Do remind that customers want to have Pakistani K8 and not the Chinese K8... Even if the latter one more optimized with composites. Even Chinese pilots would go for another plane.

I don't know how you would prove certain part is more modern. I know that even if certain parts are only produced in Pakistan, when China started to mass produce JL-8, they would've started to at least shift all local productions to Chinese makers. They are too paranoid to not produce all of the parts locally.

Since you all pointed out that the airframe is no high tech then I think Pakistan can handle the production. Defaming it over and over again does not change the reality. And if China does it al then why is their a need for 8 planes doing testing for almost a year in Pakistan? Cause Pakistan provided input in the design, building and testing. Do remind that before JF17 China was busy in copying Mig21F. I do not think that is without foreign help to move towards J10/JF17/Jxx...

don't know what your point is. The plane is for PAF's requirements first, that's why they are sent to PAF for testing. If you see JF-17 in CFTE, it would be a pretty good sign that PLAAF is really thinking about purchasing the plane. Before JF-17, China already developed J-10, JH-7A and started local production of su-27. So, are you basically looking for Chinese on this board to say that without Pakistan's input, China would not be able to crank out modern planes?

There is a clear reason that Pak JF17 will be more modern then the Chinese... Just look at the weapon deals like Brazil or SA. And there is nothing wrong with that. Russia produces a superb plane called SU30 MK. Yet India added a lot more by buying from Israel and France. It does make MKI a better plane then what the Russian had. Naturally the Russians evolves into a better version now...

Reminding about the PG... Pakistan tested it. Altered it and Bangladesh bought the Paksitani version. Do you still think that the original Chinese version was better?

I can tell you that su-27sm is more lethal than MKK and in certain ways, better than MKI. As for PG, it's J-7, who cares?

 

[Munir]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

>>>I don't know how you would prove certain part is more modern. I know that even if certain parts are only produced in Pakistan, when China started to mass produce JL-8, they would've started to at least shift all local productions to Chinese makers. They are too paranoid to not produce all of the parts locally.

Your last sentence is indeed the right remark. Pakistan is used to get important parts and if needed it will build them. If it is not a risk it will stay as import. But JF17 is not about importing parts. It is raising industry which will start with assmebly knowledge, basic aircraft parts, integrating and testing weapons and avionics and eventually it will make the planes better of move to a new design. China has the cash, manpower and intellect to absorb all in much smaller time frame. Pakistan is just a small nation compared to China but it can excell in certain fields like no other. It maintained Chinese, American and French planes under ery difficult circumstances. To tell a simple fact... The F16A's send to the US dor MLU have Pakistani updates. And we surel can say that not everything is left in the plane when they left. If Pakistan is able to get technology (we frankly do not really care how) to build Babur and Ra'ad, then it will be able to handle projects like JF17.

>>>don't know what your point is. The plane is for PAF's requirements first, that's why they are sent to PAF for testing. If you see JF-17 in CFTE, it would be a pretty good sign that PLAAF is really thinking about purchasing the plane. Before JF-17, China already developed J-10, JH-7A and started local production of su-27. So, are you basically looking for Chinese on this board to say that without Pakistan's input, China would not be able to crank out modern planes?

Nopes. I say that China can do a lot but Pakistani pilots are fine tuning a lot more. J6 was less then F6. J7 was less then F7. Chinese K8 is still less then Pakistani K8. And JF17 will have a lot more western parts to be more then FC1. Not that China is not able to... But China is far more busy with J10B, J11 or next top model. I did say, a decade ago China produced low tech, today China moved towards top few. In a decade it will be top 3. But Pakistan did contribute in certain fields.

>>>I can tell you that su-27sm is more lethal than MKK and in certain ways, better than MKI. As for PG, it's J-7, who cares?

I can tell you that others will say MKI is a lot better. I have no insight nor capabiliy to judge that. I have seen some of the planes peform but if you see 100 planes in a year doing nice aerobatics you do not see how well they perform in real combat.

The PG might be a lot more dangerous then sugested. During Pak India war the Gnat was the most hated plane. Just the size. Nothing else. PG is small and agile. I rather stay out of WVR. In Pakistani arena there will be a lot more WVR then maybe in China-Taiwan... We had J6 to fight Mig21... Some might laugh but we would still remind others that these maybe less advanced plane saved out b... It did a lot more pain to say goodbye then many would think. Last decade or 2 we had J7P as backbone together with a few 3 decades old block15 F16 to face IAF with plenty dangerous plane. We could handle that. I think we will be able to handle a lot more then others predict.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Reminding about the PG... Pakistan tested it. Altered it and Bangladesh bought the Paksitani version. Do you still think that the original Chinese version was better?

Do you mean the multi-role BVR F-7BGs? Because... those aren't from Pakistan, they're from China. So are their F-7MBs. Bangladesh does not operate any other J-7 variant.

 

[flyboy2008]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

And just like the K8 there is a bigger chance that parts from Pakistan are more modern then Chinese... Do remind that customers want to have Pakistani K8 and not the Chinese K8... Even if the latter one more optimized with composites. Even Chinese pilots would go for another plane.

If customers wanted the Pakistani K8, they would've ordered it from your country. So far, which country has ordered from Pakistan? They've all ordered it through China. Egypt. Mynamar. Most recently, Veneuzuela.

A couple of Martin Baker seats don't make it more modern. Besides, the entire plane is Chinese origin. Not pakistanese.

Since you all pointed out that the airframe is no high tech then I think Pakistan can handle the production. Defaming it over and over again does not change the reality. And if China does it al then why is their a need for 8 planes doing testing for almost a year in Pakistan? Cause Pakistan provided input in the design, building and testing.

Pakistan is learning slowly how to build the air-frame. Today, they cannot. Maybe in a few years, they will be able to build 50% of the airframe. Today, China makes the plane, and packages it into kits to be delivered. What Pakistan does is, read the assembly instructions, and puts the kits together.

That's REALITY. I'm not DEFAMING Pakistan, but Reality seems to upset you.

Do remind that before JF17 China was busy in copying Mig21F. I do not think that is without foreign help to move towards J10/JF17/Jxx...

Foreign help? Are you kidding? The world has always tried to prevent China from advancing. And so China had to learn things the hard way. Reverse Engineering. China only wishes it had a nation to help her the way China is helping Pakistan today. But you know what? Today, China is like a 20,000lb Boulder rolling down a mountain side. It has enough inertia that it's momentum cannot be stopped. As you pointed out, China can today build planes like the J10,J17,JXX. The future is bright. China is nearly self-sufficient, and doesn't need "western" TOT, or kits to help her.

That's what you're not understanding. Maybe Pakistan can get a slightly better Western sub-system. Who cares? I'd rather be 90% capable but 100% independent. That way, you're not dependent on anyone. And you can ALWAYS IMPROVE, and narrow the difference from 90% to 100%.

There is a clear reason that Pak JF17 will be more modern then the Chinese... Just look at the weapon deals like Brazil or SA. And there is nothing wrong with that. Russia produces a superb plane called SU30 MK. Yet India added a lot more by buying from Israel and France. It does make MKI a better plane then what the Russian had. Naturally the Russians evolves into a better version now...

Reminding about the PG... Pakistan tested it. Altered it and Bangladesh bought the Paksitani version. Do you still think that the original Chinese version was better?

We shall see what the Pak JF17 turns out like. More likely, Western firms won't give TOT or allow Pakistan to EXPORT it. If you can't EXPORT it, then Exported versions will use Chinese Sub-Systems. More $$ for the Chinese firms.

I think the Chinese were pretty smart after all to joint venture with Pakistan. The Chinese know Pakistan can't build the high-end items, so they will have to use Chinese sub-systems. Chinese win out on this deal.

For example, who's going to give you TOT for engines? Nobody. Pakistan will simply buy the engine from some nation, most likely China. WS13 is an attractive option compared to Russian RD93, or more expensive Western engines.

Until Pakistan can reverse-engineer these parts, Pakistan will ALWAYS be dependent on everyone. And Pakistan does not have that ability to reverse-engineer high tech items. Not today. Not tomorrow.

China on the other hand, is improving every single day. Soon, they'll be equal to the West. It's just a matter of TIME. China has Time and Money and Motivation to reach there.

 

[Londo Molari]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Pakistans 50%share is for the airframe of the FC1. This is why Pakistan is trying to find Western engines, radars, avionics, and weapons for the JF17. Because all of these sub-systems is not included in the partnership.

Yeah, thats completely false. Pakistan, or rather PAC is 50% financial partner in the project. That mean they get 50% of the profits from sale of the entire JF-17 aircraft.

Now as part of the project, they will definitely purchase vast majority of raw materials and subsystems from chinese firms and supplers, which will provide revenue to Chinese firms, transactions in which obviously Pakistan has no connection. They will also pay money to Pakistani firms (e.g. the firm that made the JF-17's HUD). However after paying all these suppliers, whatever money is left in the project, goes to CAC and PAC 50/50.

 

[flyboy2008]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Yeah, thats completely false. Pakistan, or rather PAC is 50% financial partner in the project. That mean they get 50% of the profits from sale of the entire JF-17 aircraft.

Now as part of the project, they will definitely purchase vast majority of raw materials and subsystems from chinese firms and supplers, which will provide revenue to Chinese firms, transactions in which obviously Pakistan has no connection. They will also pay money to Pakistani firms (e.g. the firm that made the JF-17's HUD). However after paying all these suppliers, whatever money is left in the project, goes to CAC and PAC 50/50.

That's what I said. Whatever net profits remain is divided 50% between Pakistan and China.

Let's say Egypt purchases the plane for 25 million, and China does all of the manufacturing.

Let's say China's suppliers total margin + cost is 24.5 million. China would receive 24.5 million.

The remaining .5 million is profit, and would be shared between Pakistan and CAC.

And the same would be true for Pakistan. But this is where the Chinese were smart: They know Pakistan would not be able to manufacture the high end items like avionics, or engines. Not for anytime soon. So this way, Chinese will stand to earn more than their Pakistan counterparts because the most expensive items are the engines, avionics, and weapons.

However, everyone who manufacturers the part, would get their share. And whatever is remaining, is split evenly.

Pakistan will receive TOT to build up to 50% of the airframe.

Pakistan does not get TOT for the avionics / radar.
Pakistan does not get TOT for weapon systems.
Pakistan does not get TOT for the engine.

That is why Pakistan is looking to the West for these sub-systems.

 

[flyboy2008]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

They will also pay money to Pakistani firms (e.g. the firm that made the JF-17's HUD).

I missed this sentence. That's not true. Pakistani firms did not make the JF17 HUD. Chinese firms did. If you recall, Chinese firms exhibited the JF17 HUD back in Zuhai 2006.