JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[flyboy2008]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

No. For the last 40 years, Pakistan has never acquired or even considered acquiring large, heavy or double-engined fighters. Their entire air-defense doctrine involves purchasing small fighters, as they are cheap, stealthy, easy-to-maintain and also be hidden easily. J-11B is a GIANT aircraft. It is a strike platform. PAF has always been about air-defence, not deep strike. It would be a complete 180 degree turn for PAF philosophy to even think about buying it.

The only situation I can forsee is, that they would request China to let PAF pilots fly against the J-11, so that they gain valuable experience on how to beat the Su-30MKI.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Pakistan if they have competent leaders would definitely want a heavy, strike capable plane like the J11B, especially in today's tense climate with India.

In a war, just having Point Defense fighters isn't enough. Sooner or later, you need to attack the enemy factories, and cities, and military sites. You need a twin engine heavy plane like a J11B.

Although the J11B is 100% indigenous, China does not, or chooses not to offer this plane, probably out of respect to Russia. But if China wanted to, it could sell the J11B. This would piss off the Russians, but there's nothing the Russians could do about it. It's not like the J11B uses any Russian parts. Not anymore it doesn't.

If a war between Pakistan and India occurs, Chinese leaders may offer the J11B. Are you going to seriously say Pakistan would then say NO? Of course not... In a WAR, Pakistan would definitely take the J11B, and as many J10s as the Chinese can make.

 

[Engineer]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

That's an early J-10. That's not the best J-10 they have.

One of the J-10 in the airshow appeared to be production number 105. If it is indeed the 105th J-10, and it is an early version, then how many J-10 does the PLAAF actually have?

 

[crobato]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

One of the J-10 in the airshow appeared to be production number 105. If it is indeed the 105th J-10, and it is an early version, then how many J-10 does the PLAAF actually have?

The ones from the show came from the 44th Division. This was the first PLAAF regiment to become operational with the J-10, aside from test and trial regiments. Since then there has been at least three other regiments that acquired the J-10. A J-10 regiment is counted to be 28 aircraft, four twin seaters, 24 single seaters. 28 aircraft is based on 28 new shelters that appear on the base where the regiment is converted. Naturally you don't see the J-10s hanging out on the strip per se, they're going to be under the shelters. That will be 28 x 4, not counting the trial regiment still active with the FTTC, which maybe around 20 pre production aircraft, and the prototypes still littering around the CFTC and at the CAC factory. The trial regiment is an active one, even on trials, and its tasked on the air defense of the Beijing proper.

Production 0105 may simply mean Batch 01, 5th plane. There maybe a previous batch like 00 for all the protos and preproduction aircraft used on trials. Its possible that for the second regiment, it maybe Batch 02, the third regiment, Batch 03, and the fourth regiment, Batch 04. So the newest planes may have a number like 0415, which can mean 15th plane of the 4th batch.

 

[dlhh]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

so what? Let them buy it off US. Why does China have to sell the best that it has just because it's not the best in the world? Do you think every country out there has access to Aegis?

I think you missing the point here.

PLA does not have to sell whatever it has, but if everyone agrees that the Yuan is not superior, what can PLA lose in selling the Yuan. Not to do so is a sign of weakness, not strength.

As for the offer of J-10 to Thailand & Malaysia, it was reported in Malaysia. Malaysia is thinking of the next batch of advanced fighters after the SU-30MKI and the J-10 was offered.

As for the radar, it was reported in this forum that J-10 radar is a mechanical one. Whatever PLA is developing in the future is not ready, we are comparing what they have right now.

Lastly, lets tone down the tempo of this topic.

My point is not to put down the effectiveness of PLA weapons.

Its to point to the fact that PLA has offered what is considered the best it has like the J-10 to other countries which means it wants to be a serious player in the arms business.

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

PLA does not have to sell whatever it has, but if everyone agrees that the Yuan is not superior, what can PLA lose in selling the Yuan. Not to do so is a sign of weakness, not strength.

Maybe because it doesn't want everyone acquiring it's acoustic signature!?!?! It might not be the best, but the PLAN does not want everyone to understand the level of technology and development onboard its subs. Also, there most probably are certain subsystems on their subs that are either superior to, or have no analogous counterpart on Western/Russian subs. They may also want not everyone knowing their design approach and philosophy, hence allowing a great veil of secrecy on future platforms as well.

Its to point to the fact that PLA has offered what is considered the best it has like the J-10 to other countries which means it wants to be a serious player in the arms business.

You don't have to sell advanced weapons to be a serious player. China did just fine with F-7s, Type 59/69s, and Type 81s. The Soviet Union made FAR more on its AK's than any of its fighters/warships/subs.

 

[dlhh]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Maybe because it doesn't want everyone acquiring it's acoustic signature!?!?! It might not be the best, but the PLAN does not want everyone to understand the level of technology and development onboard its subs. Also, there most probably are certain subsystems on their subs that are either superior to, or have no analogous counterpart on Western/Russian subs. They may also want not everyone knowing their design approach and philosophy, hence allowing a great veil of secrecy on future platforms as well.

You have a point there as the americans have insisted that the sale of F16C/D to Pakistan comes with an agreement that PLA does not have access to these planes.

I guess the PLA could come up with such agreements with any would be buyers but then again it comes down to how confident you are in your dealings with foreign buyers.

Then to put it in perspective, perhaps its too much to expect the PLA to be on a par with other western players. Perhaps in the future.

 

[PrOeLiTeZ]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Why wouldn't Pakistan want the J11B? If India has her MKI, dont' you think Pakistan would want an SU30 class fighter?

J11B is 100% indigenous now, buddy. China could sell it if she wanted to. Obviously, the J11B represents the current HI, and so that is off-limits.

The J10A is the LO half and will probably be for sale soon.

But then you must realize CAC must have already completed or are very near completing the advanced version of the J10, and also the JXX must be progressing very rapidly.

J10A is not the latest or best Chinese fighter. J11B is.




Items like the Yuan are strategic. Why would China export these? It's better to keep them secret. same goes for all the other high end items like the KJ2000 Awacs.

If you haven't noticed, China always creates a domestic version, and an export version. In some cases, China creates entire new products just for export like the FC1, and KJ200.

If China was willing to sell everything, why would they need to create export and domestic derivatives? SD10/PL12?

What about China's nuclear submarines? China would never sell it's Nuclear submarines. Do you argue with this? China would also never sell it's air-craft carrier that it shall build.

China is following the US model, downgrading it's exports, and not selling strategic weapons.




Most likely because the J10A is not it's best plane. This J10A has been around for some time now. Undoubtedly, China has rapidly moved forward, creating advanced versions of the J10, or the JXX is progressing well. Also, the J11B is the HI, the J10A is the LO.

If China offered the J11B which is 100% indigenous, then you might have a point but it isn't offering.

Pakistan would definitely want the J11B, more than the J10A to counter India's MKI.

Sorry, accept the fact that not everything is for sale in China, not even to her best friend. Why is this hard for you to accept? It's only natural that nations preserve their best products, and sell downgraded versions. That's national security.

doesnt matter no matter how much self modifications you do, its still a Soviet/Russian Su-27 airframe, if exports violates the law which China signed and agreement on not to export. Just cause one nation has this doesnt mean another nation has to have it to. So India has Su-30MKI, so what doesn't mean Pakistan needs to go toe-to-toe in acquiring simular equipment. You have other ways of dealing with the MKI then purchasing another Flanker.

The matter is the J-10 is still China's best fighter when its and A2A, J-10 reports cited that then J-10 enjoys a 1:2 kill ratio on the Su-27. Just cause one exports something doesnt always mean its not China's best or capable. And I do hope you understand what a LO-HI mix is. Its not a adavance and un-advance fighter mix. Its a light-heavey fighter mix. Both can still be technological advance but just be in different weight class.

 

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

One of the J-10 in the airshow appeared to be production number 105. If it is indeed the 105th J-10, and it is an early version, then how many J-10 does the PLAAF actually have?

Crobato explained it and also I'm talking about that there is a next block of J-10 that is coming out, it had it's first flight this year. Should be joining service soon. J-10 is only get unveiled, because J-10B is about to join service soon.

The tests were comparing a 1980-90's era Su-27 vs a J-10 equipped with electronics that are state of the art. If both were on the same footing in terms of avionics and electronics fitting, it may be a even battle.

right, J-10 and J-11B could very well be about same in A2A combat. J-11B has an advantage over J-10 in that it is developed later, so it has newer avionics. But J-10B should have a definite advantage over 11B.

so what? Let them buy it off US. Why does China have to sell the best that it has just because it's not the best in the world? Do you think every country out there has access to Aegis?

I think you missing the point here.

PLA does not have to sell whatever it has, but if everyone agrees that the Yuan is not superior, what can PLA lose in selling the Yuan. Not to do so is a sign of weakness, not strength.

If it sells Yuan, it will let other countries know exactly what its capabilities are. There is a reason why China doesn't even let visiting US generals from visiting a J-10 base. That's how much they are going to try to hide it.

As for the offer of J-10 to Thailand & Malaysia, it was reported in Malaysia. Malaysia is thinking of the next batch of advanced fighters after the SU-30MKI and the J-10 was offered.

it was only reported in that one source that you read by that really un-credible Indian reporter. CAC has had talks with Malaysia, but that's CAC. Whether PLAAF will allow it is a different story. CAC thinks about things from a financial point of view, PLA thinks from strategic point of view.

As for the radar, it was reported in this forum that J-10 radar is a mechanical one. Whatever PLA is developing in the future is not ready, we are comparing what they have right now.

Lastly, lets tone down the tempo of this topic.

My point is not to put down the effectiveness of PLA weapons.

Its to point to the fact that PLA has offered what is considered the best it has like the J-10 to other countries which means it wants to be a serious player in the arms business.

It's not the effectiveness of Chinese weapons that's the issue here, it's whether or not they will export it the version that they use. There are different versions of each fighter jet. Just look at the F-8IIM they show at the air shows, it is inferior to J-8F in engine, radar and weapons support. Look at J-10 in Zhuhai, it was carrying export weapons like SD-10, PL-9C and LT-2 rather than PL-12, PL-8 (or PL-10).

 

[AssassinsMace]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

There is a reason why China doesn't even let visiting US generals from visiting a J-10 base. That's how much they are going to try to hide it.

Man, I forgot the general's name, but there was that story of the visiting US general touring China and he ordered his pilot to make an impromptu stop at a Chinese military base not on his itinerary that sent everyone there scrambling not because they saw it as a threat but more it seemed because they weren't ready to receive him. I don't know how many visits of high-ranking US military officers has happened since then but you wonder if it could happen again on a base with classified assets.

 

[yehe]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Truth is that militarily China is the weaker part compared to the west, thus it tender to hide more what kinda of capabilities it possess.