JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[flyboy2008]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

This is the CJ2000. I doubt that Pakistan ever gets this one, so this is not for the JF17, but for future JXX projects.

The most Pakistan will get within a decade is the WS13. And no, they won't get Tech Transfer.

 

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

This is the CJ2000. I doubt that Pakistan ever gets this one, so this is not for the JF17, but for future JXX projects.

The most Pakistan will get within a decade is the WS13. And no, they won't get Tech Transfer.

this is not CJ2000, we don't know exactly what it is. We know WS-12 is an ongoing project that is suppose to have higher T/W ratio than WS-13. And I think that might be required for PLAAF to accept JF-17. But a while back, they also mentioned another turbofan project that just got started. That one may be WS-12 or a 4th generation engine, we will see. Either way, at the present moment, China needs these engines that they showcased in zhuhai airshow, because current situation severely limits the kind of UAV they can develop.

 

[dlhh]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Yes, they did deny J-11B to Pakistan. As I said before, there are certain weapon systems in PLA that is off limits for export.

This is speculation as there is no official reports of Pakistan wanting to buy J-11B. It would not be possible anyway as there will be serious consequences with Russia as it is an upgraded SU-27 and therefore not licensed to be exported outside of China.

As for the Yuan and 052C, none of the items are superior to what can be bought elsewhere. Hui Tong website mentioned that the next generation SSG after Yuan ia a compatible Type U212 boat.

Pakistan is buying the U212. Other Asean & South Asian navies have bought the Scorpene. Both these subs are superior to the Yuan in sensors and combat systems. Any would be sales of the Yuan will only help the PLA in finding out the areas lacking improvement as they would have to compete against what is offered by the West. The same goes for the 052C.

If the PLA does not export its best, why is the J-10 offered for export then? After all, its the best indigenious produced plane so far. As for the radar and other sensors, it is not superior to what is offered elsewhere and as far as radar is concerned, cannot compare to AESA radars from EU.

Certainly, your argument that the J-10 can be exported without the best avionics or replaced by western avionics doen not hold water as the West will not allow their systems to end up in China. The installation will have to be done outside China and then the price of the plane will not be competative. The J-10 was also offered to Thailand & Malaysia.

Why would the PLA fly the J-10 at the Zhuhai show recently and allow close inspection of the J-10. Is it to show off or to sell the plane. I think you ought to give CAC & PLA more credit, it definitely is to sell the plane.

Anyway, its not necessary to argue about this point anymore as only future sales will serve as answers to this argument.

 

[flyboy2008]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

This is speculation as there is no official reports of Pakistan wanting to buy J-11B. It would not be possible anyway as there will be serious consequences with Russia as it is an upgraded SU-27 and therefore not licensed to be exported outside of China.

Why wouldn't Pakistan want the J11B? If India has her MKI, dont' you think Pakistan would want an SU30 class fighter?

J11B is 100% indigenous now, buddy. China could sell it if she wanted to. Obviously, the J11B represents the current HI, and so that is off-limits.

The J10A is the LO half and will probably be for sale soon.

But then you must realize CAC must have already completed or are very near completing the advanced version of the J10, and also the JXX must be progressing very rapidly.

J10A is not the latest or best Chinese fighter. J11B is.

As for the Yuan and 052C, none of the items are superior to what can be bought elsewhere. Hui Tong website mentioned that the next generation SSG after Yuan ia a compatible Type U212 boat.

Pakistan is buying the U212. Other Asean & South Asian navies have bought the Scorpene. Both these subs are superior to the Yuan in sensors and combat systems. Any would be sales of the Yuan will only help the PLA in finding out the areas lacking improvement as they would have to compete against what is offered by the West. The same goes for the 052C.

Items like the Yuan are strategic. Why would China export these? It's better to keep them secret. same goes for all the other high end items like the KJ2000 Awacs.

If you haven't noticed, China always creates a domestic version, and an export version. In some cases, China creates entire new products just for export like the FC1, and KJ200.

If China was willing to sell everything, why would they need to create export and domestic derivatives? SD10/PL12?

What about China's nuclear submarines? China would never sell it's Nuclear submarines. Do you argue with this? China would also never sell it's air-craft carrier that it shall build.

China is following the US model, downgrading it's exports, and not selling strategic weapons.

If the PLA does not export its best, why is the J-10 offered for export then? After all, its the best indigenious produced plane so far. As for the radar and other sensors, it is not superior to what is offered elsewhere and as far as radar is concerned, cannot compare to AESA radars from EU.

Most likely because the J10A is not it's best plane. This J10A has been around for some time now. Undoubtedly, China has rapidly moved forward, creating advanced versions of the J10, or the JXX is progressing well. Also, the J11B is the HI, the J10A is the LO.

If China offered the J11B which is 100% indigenous, then you might have a point but it isn't offering.

Pakistan would definitely want the J11B, more than the J10A to counter India's MKI.

Sorry, accept the fact that not everything is for sale in China, not even to her best friend. Why is this hard for you to accept? It's only natural that nations preserve their best products, and sell downgraded versions. That's national security.

 

[Munir]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

J10 is less then J11 that is why J10 is offered. Jf17 is less then J10 cause J10 is fully Chinese... These kind of comments are not based on facts. It is like F16C/D is more agile the F16A cause it is newer. I can tell you that F16A is better in every agility aspect if compared with later versions. Well, even F5 rolls better then F16A.... Does it mean something?

One moment J10 is beating J11/SU27. The other moment J11 is superior. Where is he logic. Flyboy just registered. 4 posts. And now he knows a lot more then we all thought.

We had downgrade discussion in the past. Somehow it is the cyrcle of nonsens.

 

[flyboy2008]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

J10 is less then J11 that is why J10 is offered. Jf17 is less then J10 cause J10 is fully Chinese... These kind of comments are not based on facts. It is like F16C/D is more agile the F16A cause it is newer. I can tell you that F16A is better in every agility aspect if compared with later versions. Well, even F5 rolls better then F16A.... Does it mean something?

One moment J10 is beating J11/SU27. The other moment J11 is superior. Where is he logic. Flyboy just registered. 4 posts. And now he knows a lot more then we all thought.

We had downgrade discussion in the past. Somehow it is the cyrcle of nonsens.

Yes, I agree it's useless to continue this discussion with you, and all who think like you.

China is a nation, and national security is not a game. It is reckless for some to believe a nation would sell anything and everything for $$.

China doesn't need money that much like the Russians. But notice, a decade ago when Russia was bankrupt, even then, it would not sell it's utmost best technologies. So why do you think China, which as trillions in reserves, would sell it's best technology at the sake of National Security?

It's useless to continue talking to people who fail to understand this. Of course, these very people would then have problems selling the JF17 (assuming Pakistan one day masters building the JF17) without pre-conditions, and would hesitate to give TOT, right?

You see, you're argument is laughably nonsensical.

When China sells the KJ2000, and sells it's submarines, and sells it's J11B, then you can make the case. But you see, China isn't and WON'T do that.

 

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Yes, they did deny J-11B to Pakistan. As I said before, there are certain weapon systems in PLA that is off limits for export.

This is speculation as there is no official reports of Pakistan wanting to buy J-11B. It would not be possible anyway as there will be serious consequences with Russia as it is an upgraded SU-27 and therefore not licensed to be exported outside of China.

you can believe it or not, this source has been very good in the past.

As for the Yuan and 052C, none of the items are superior to what can be bought elsewhere. Hui Tong website mentioned that the next generation SSG after Yuan ia a compatible Type U212 boat.

so what? Let them buy it off US. Why does China have to sell the best that it has just because it's not the best in the world? Do you think every country out there has access to Aegis?

Pakistan is buying the U212. Other Asean & South Asian navies have bought the Scorpene. Both these subs are superior to the Yuan in sensors and combat systems. Any would be sales of the Yuan will only help the PLA in finding out the areas lacking improvement as they would have to compete against what is offered by the West. The same goes for the 052C.

You don't know what PLA needs. The one thing it doesn't need is for the West to get a hint of the capabilities of its systems. It has exported submarines and surface ships in the past, how much improvement do you think that led to? Not much.

If the PLA does not export its best, why is the J-10 offered for export then? After all, its the best indigenious produced plane so far. As for the radar and other sensors, it is not superior to what is offered elsewhere and as far as radar is concerned, cannot compare to AESA radars from EU.

That's the thing, China will not be exporting J-10B as it is. That is for its own air force. Any J-10 it exports will be to customer specifications, but it will not include sensitive subsystems that will be on a PLAAF J-10B. You don't know what kind of radar or sensors China has. And frankly, if PAF doesn't think J-10's systems is good enough for it, it can always pay more to get from French. China will not sell its best just so that it can make a few extra buck. Heck, Pakistan is asking for China to give export credit just so that it can purchase J-10 and JF-17. So, who do you think has the leverage?

Certainly, your argument that the J-10 can be exported without the best avionics or replaced by western avionics doen not hold water as the West will not allow their systems to end up in China. The installation will have to be done outside China and then the price of the plane will not be competative. The J-10 was also offered to Thailand & Malaysia.

Who told you J-10 was offered to Thailand and Malaysia? Just because CAC had a couple of conversations with these countries, you think PLAAF will allow it?
If J-10's pricing is not competitive installing Western systems, then let PAF buy something else. I'm not going to even bother going through how cheap J-10 is compared to other similar generation planes to you.

Why would the PLA fly the J-10 at the Zhuhai show recently and allow close inspection of the J-10. Is it to show off or to sell the plane. I think you ought to give CAC & PLA more credit, it definitely is to sell the plane.

That's an early J-10. That's not the best J-10 they have. Of course it's promoting J-10, it was promoting J-8II also as F-8IIM. But when Iran asked for J-8F, China never released it, because it didn't want to export the version used by PLAAF.

Anyway, its not necessary to argue about this point anymore as only future sales will serve as answers to this argument.

Yes, I just wasted 10 minutes of my life replying to this post that I'm never going to get back.

 

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

J10 is less then J11 that is why J10 is offered. Jf17 is less then J10 cause J10 is fully Chinese... These kind of comments are not based on facts. It is like F16C/D is more agile the F16A cause it is newer. I can tell you that F16A is better in every agility aspect if compared with later versions. Well, even F5 rolls better then F16A.... Does it mean something?

One moment J10 is beating J11/SU27. The other moment J11 is superior. Where is he logic. Flyboy just registered. 4 posts. And now he knows a lot more then we all thought.

We had downgrade discussion in the past. Somehow it is the cyrcle of nonsens.

Nobody is saying JF-17 is less than J-10, because J-10 is fully Chinese. It's less than J-10, because everyone in CAC will tell you that. It's less than J-10, because PAF said it with every interview it gave about J-10.

J-10 is far superior to su-27 in A2A combat, but we don't know how much better it is over J-11B in A2A combat. And also, the overall capability of J-11B is considered higher, because it has better range/load, so it can do certain tasks that J-10 can't do.

 

[Londo Molari]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Why wouldn't Pakistan want the J11B? If India has her MKI, dont' you think Pakistan would want an SU30 class fighter?

No. For the last 40 years, Pakistan has never acquired or even considered acquiring large, heavy or double-engined fighters. Their entire air-defense doctrine involves purchasing small fighters, as they are cheap, stealthy, easy-to-maintain and also be hidden easily. J-11B is a GIANT aircraft. It is a strike platform. PAF has always been about air-defence, not deep strike. It would be a complete 180 degree turn for PAF philosophy to even think about buying it.

The only situation I can forsee is, that they would request China to let PAF pilots fly against the J-11, so that they gain valuable experience on how to beat the Su-30MKI.

 

[Pointblank]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

J-10 is far superior to su-27 in A2A combat, but we don't know how much better it is over J-11B in A2A combat. And also, the overall capability of J-11B is considered higher, because it has better range/load, so it can do certain tasks that J-10 can't do.

The tests were comparing a 1980-90's era Su-27 vs a J-10 equipped with electronics that are state of the art. If both were on the same footing in terms of avionics and electronics fitting, it may be a even battle.