J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

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Inst

Captain
They may be mature TVC engines now BUT to incorporate them with J-20 requires a lot of work. The same amount of work to integrating WS-10 TVC. So given the limits of what you can choose, would the PLAAF choose to do the work integrating the more mature foreign engine or use that time and effort integrating the WS-10? Assuming they can only choose one due to limits on what you can realisitically afford to do, I'd wager PLAAF would go with the WS-10 which is now a mature engine but the TVC itself may be unproven. Su-35 capabilities with the TVC does not necessarily carry over. It's not like they can say hey look the Su-35 performs marvelously with TVC so the same TVC engine on a J-20 must allow the J-20 to do the same. Nope.

Therefore it's far more likely the PLAAF will choose the WS-10 TVC engine over a Russian one since the TVC component itself can be perfected and of the two engines themselves, the WS-10 has superior lifespan and MTBO.

So far, the J-20 has been integrated with an AL-31 variant and a WS-10 variant. The Russian engines I propose are in the same family as the AL-31, so they should already have familiarity from having played with other AL-31 variants.

Since the WS-15 is late, doing more work but easier work is better than doing less work but harder work.
 

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
They may be mature TVC engines now BUT to incorporate them with J-20 requires a lot of work. The same amount of work to integrating WS-10 TVC. So given the limits of what you can choose, would the PLAAF choose to do the work integrating the more mature foreign engine or use that time and effort integrating the WS-10? Assuming they can only choose one due to limits on what you can realisitically afford to do, I'd wager PLAAF would go with the WS-10 which is now a mature engine but the TVC itself may be unproven. Su-35 capabilities with the TVC does not necessarily carry over. It's not like they can say hey look the Su-35 performs marvelously with TVC so the same TVC engine on a J-20 must allow the J-20 to do the same. Nope.

Therefore it's far more likely the PLAAF will choose the WS-10 TVC engine over a Russian one since the TVC component itself can be perfected and of the two engines themselves, the WS-10 has superior lifespan and MTBO.
I think we are all giving too much thinking to a Minnie Chan article here. There is at present nothing to indicate J-20s are being produced with TVC systems. What we do know is that the TVC system was tested on the J-20 system, but that is most likely preparation for the WS-15. I can't remember Minnie Chan being right about anything before so I think this theory should be put to rest.
 

Inst

Captain
Given the history of Minnie Chan being far more often wrong than she is right like 90-10, shouldn't we take the opposite of what she says to be the more likely truth?
So if Minnie Chan says the sky is blue in the clear of day, the sky is orange?

In any case, as I've said, the Minnie Chan rumor does NOT deserve discussion. It's something that's possible, but she doesn't have enough reliability that we can take her claims at face value.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
As for the TVC, the Chinese are doing three dimensional, not two dimensional thrust vectoring (check out the Zhuhai 2018 show) ... but this will system will only appear on the real J-20B alongside the WS-15.

I don’t think the J10B TWC testbed can give us any solid indications in terms of Chinese TVC plans for the J20.

If they go for a F35 style somewhat-stealth round nozzle design, it might allow for 3D TVC, but if they opt to go for F22 style full stealth (including IR suppression, which might be a key priority for the J20 when supercruising), 2D is more likely.

I think it is premature for us to make any conclusions because I think the PLAAF itself would probably need to see test results of the two types to make a final decision itself. In that respect, I fully expect to see both F22 and F35 nozzle versions of WS15s appearing on J20s in the future, perhaps even have a fly-off to determine the final winner, but I don’t think we will know for sure which way the PLAAF have gone until we see production versions.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
So far, the J-20 has been integrated with an AL-31 variant and a WS-10 variant. The Russian engines I propose are in the same family as the AL-31, so they should already have familiarity from having played with other AL-31 variants.

Since the WS-15 is late, doing more work but easier work is better than doing less work but harder work.

This is irrelevant. We're talking about FCS integration with TVC. Do you even understand what a monumentally difficult task this is? It's not a matter of saying well WS-10 now works on J-20 so WS-10 TVC should only take a few months. Ditto AL engines.

So if Minnie Chan says the sky is blue in the clear of day, the sky is orange?

LOL this is a huge strawman argument from you. Back to usual discussion methods is it?
 

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
I don’t think the J10B TWC testbed can give us any solid indications in terms of Chinese TVC plans for the J20.

If they go for a F35 style somewhat-stealth round nozzle design, it might allow for 3D TVC, but if they opt to go for F22 style full stealth (including IR suppression, which might be a key priority for the J20 when supercruising), 2D is more likely.

I think it is premature for us to make any conclusions because I think the PLAAF itself would probably need to see test results of the two types to make a final decision itself. In that respect, I fully expect to see both F22 and F35 nozzle versions of WS15s appearing on J20s in the future, perhaps even have a fly-off to determine the final winner, but I don’t think we will know for sure which way the PLAAF have gone until we see production versions.
According to Henri K, the PLAAF already decided in favor of the 3D design.
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Inst

Captain
This is irrelevant. We're talking about FCS integration with TVC. Do you even understand what a monumentally difficult task this is? It's not a matter of saying well WS-10 now works on J-20 so WS-10 TVC should only take a few months. Ditto AL engines.



LOL this is a huge strawman argument from you. Back to usual discussion methods is it?
Your entire point is that Minnie Chan is always wrong. My point is that Minnie Chan is unreliable, which is to say, she can say whatever she wants but that doesn't mean her claims are either true or false.

Remember, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

And as regarding the FCS, I'd imagine I have a notion of how difficult integration might be, so I'm suggesting that the Chinese might start with Russian engines because it reduces points of failure.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Your entire point is that Minnie Chan is always wrong. My point is that Minnie Chan is unreliable, which is to say, she can say whatever she wants but that doesn't mean her claims are either true or false.

Remember, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

And as regarding the FCS, I'd imagine I have a notion of how difficult integration might be, so I'm suggesting that the Chinese might start with Russian engines because it reduces points of failure.

Can you please stop the strawmanning? I never said she's always wrong. I said she's often wrong so we should all consider this reputation for being wrong. This doesn't equate to me saying everything MC says will forever always be wrong and should be ignored. I said NONE of that. You invented this in your head because you seem to be incapable of comprehending nuance and anything that isn't pure black and white. You must convert complexity into black or white.

On topic, does anyone really think the PLAAF will spend the money, time, and effort to integrate the J-20's FCS with an interim TVC engine be it Russian or Chinese AND then do that all over again with the WS-15? Think! Use your brains people! The only way that makes sense is if two things; the WS-15 is FARRRRRRRRR away from completion AND the TVC will add very necessary capability a non-TVC engine set does not.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
If we see WS-10 or AL-31 based TVC engines on the J-20 soon, rest assured that the WS-15 is much more than 5 years away. You can't just do the same FCS integration and software codes for the WS-15 once you've done the work for the WS-10 or AL-31. It doesn't work that way unless the WS-15 is basically the same engine which it will not be.
 
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