J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII


Petrolicious88

Junior Member
Registered Member
Do we have a timeline or updates on the Ws-15 engine. Some report claimed a max production rate of 5-6 engine per year (way to limited).
 

Inst

Senior Member
That's overly simplified.

The Meteor uses a seeker of the same family as the MICA and ASTER missiles and is a known and proven technology.
Also no aircraft is gonna fly straight into a missile while hoping it can jam it successfully - we will gonna see F-pole engagements which the ramjet will create a no-escape zone way larger than the Chinese PL-12 and PL-15 capacities.
And? It's still a slotted array or pre-PESA radar. Its ECCM advantage is that it has a two-way data-link that can keep it guided by the Rafael.

As for Meteor vs PL-12, that's a no-brainer, the PL-12 is roughly comparable to an AIM-120B. The PL-15, on the other hand, features an AESA seeker and a dual-pulse rocket motor, sufficient to scare the USAF into the LREW program.

We're uncertain, basically, as to what the exact capabilities of the PL-15 are. The comparable Russian system, the K-77M, has a stated 197 km aerodynamic range, but is roughly 0.5 meters shorter than the PL-15. The minimum expected aerodynamic range of the PL-15 would be 200 km, likewise, but the extended length could result in significantly increased ranges; the MICA missile, for instance, is extremely similar to the PL-10 ASR, but sports a 33% longer range (80km vs 60km implied aerodynamic range) because of only a 7 kg difference (PL-10E has a listed 105 kg weight, the MICA has a 112 kg weight) and a 5G max maneuverability difference (55G vs 50G).

A further factor is that the standard NEZ of an AAM is about 1/3rd the aerodynamic range. But since the PL-12 is a dual pulse rocket motor, it can fire off its rocket motor in stages and further extend its NEZ over a conventional AAM. At 200 km range with 50% aerodynamic range, you get 100 km. At 250 km range with 50% aerodynamic range, you get 125 km. At 300 km range with the standard 33% aerodynamic range, you get 100 km. The difference between standard AAMs, dual pulse AAMs, and ramjets is that with standard AAMs you get one shot, with dual pulse AAMs you get two shots, and ramjets can continuously vary their thrust as long as they're within ramjet speed.

The main defenses of the Rafale comes out, first, to the Rafale having a semi-modern IRST, being IOC-ed in 2009, with stated maximum detection / tracking at 100 km. This means that the J-20 can't approach the Rafale at high subsonic and has to do an F-35-style low-speed approach. Second, the Rafale is the only Western aircraft known to be capable of 11G emergency agility, which reduces the effective range of the PL-15.

When it comes to J-20 vs Rafale, the pure offensive competition is very close; the PL-15 likely outranges the Meteor in pure aerodynamic range, likely has greater effective range vs 9G based purely on its greater range, but is going to suffer some range reduction vs a 11G fighter. The J-20, likewise, is stealth and will always see the Rafale first given that it has a massive AESA vs the puny RBE2-AA (around 800 elements vs 1500 elements on Eurofighter and the F-18 or 2000 elements on the F-15E, F-22, or J-20). Defensively, given that the Meteor isn't going to get an AESA seeker until 2022 at the earliest, and that the J-20 is at least a -30 dBsm VLO fighter, that the AESA on the J-20 is jamming capable, the Rafale is going to have a touch time touching the J-20.
 

stormtroops

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Highly recommend reading the papers published in the latest issue of the Chinese Journal of Aeronautics, many are related to J-20's R&D, including the once-hot topic, do canards affect the stealth capacity of J-20?
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The abstract:
This paper studies the Radar Cross-Section (RCS) effect on canard configuration fighter of canard. First, the scattering mechanism of canard is analyzed. And then, the Multi-Level Fast Multipole Method (MLFMM) is used to compute the configuration’s RCS of the given fighter models. And by comparing the computational results of both the canard configuration and the conventional configuration, the RCS effect of canard is analyzed, focusing on the RCS effect on fighter after the canard is rotated. In addition, a full-size parts stealth test is conducted by researching the RCS effect on fighter of both edge scattering and gap scattering and respective inhibition measures. The test results show that, after the scattering of canard is inhibited, the RCS level of canard configuration can be applied to configuration design of stealth fighter. And its stealth capacity is comparable with that of the conventional configuration. Finally, the guiding principles of canard stealth design are postulated.
 

Inst

Senior Member
Highly recommend reading the papers published in the latest issue of the Chinese Journal of Aeronautics, many are related to J-20's R&D, including the once-hot topic, do canards affect the stealth capacity of J-20?
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The abstract:
This paper studies the Radar Cross-Section (RCS) effect on canard configuration fighter of canard. First, the scattering mechanism of canard is analyzed. And then, the Multi-Level Fast Multipole Method (MLFMM) is used to compute the configuration’s RCS of the given fighter models. And by comparing the computational results of both the canard configuration and the conventional configuration, the RCS effect of canard is analyzed, focusing on the RCS effect on fighter after the canard is rotated. In addition, a full-size parts stealth test is conducted by researching the RCS effect on fighter of both edge scattering and gap scattering and respective inhibition measures. The test results show that, after the scattering of canard is inhibited, the RCS level of canard configuration can be applied to configuration design of stealth fighter. And its stealth capacity is comparable with that of the conventional configuration. Finally, the guiding principles of canard stealth design are postulated.
Posted previously, but given that it's hard to search for, it's not a big deal. Note that the "fixed" J-20 canard set-up is far different from the canards implemented on the J-20.
 

stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
Posted previously, but given that it's hard to search for, it's not a big deal. Note that the "fixed" J-20 canard set-up is far different from the canards implemented on the J-20.
But still, it would be a nice read to understand how canards would impact the overall stealth, and you can have a general idea on how canards might impact on J-20 despite some differences. Overall this paper is about the principles and overall rules of canards design impacts over aircraft stealth. It was also discussed previously...
 

Inst

Senior Member
But still, it would be a nice read to understand how canards would impact the overall stealth, and you can have a general idea on how canards might impact on J-20 despite some differences. Overall this paper is about the principles and overall rules of canards design impacts over aircraft stealth. It was also discussed previously...
The charts roughly imply a 2.5-5 dBsm penalty for canards, although there's definitely regions where the canard layout wins out vs a conventional layout. It's just that the canard stealth angles are different than tailed stealth angles, so that's a factor that has to be considered; i.e, can you keep your canard stealth fighter at an advantageous angle vs a tailed emitter, while keeping them out of their advantageous angle?
 

stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
The charts roughly imply a 2.5-5 dBsm penalty for canards, although there's definitely regions where the canard layout wins out vs a conventional layout. It's just that the canard stealth angles are different than tailed stealth angles, so that's a factor that has to be considered; i.e, can you keep your canard stealth fighter at an advantageous angle vs a tailed emitter, while keeping them out of their advantageous angle?
sorry, but which chart you are referring to? I can't find any chart imply a 2.5-5 dBsm penalty for canards?
 

AndrewS

Major
Registered Member
China’s stealth fighter goes into mass production after thrust upgrade
  • The J-20B has overcome agility problems to finally be considered a fully fledged fifth-generation fighter, military source says
  • Aircraft still will be fitted with Russian engine but ‘Chinese version could be ready in a year or two’
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