J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[Pmichael]

The F-22 only took around 8 years from first flight to Introduction. And the J-10 took around 7 years. So... if J-20 achieving initial operational capability in 7-8 years is not that stunning.

It's not out of the question to have a first small batch of J-20 with it's current engines hand over to the PLAAF for thest drive around 2017-2018(maybe not 12, but like 6-10 in a year is not really that big of a challenge if China wants the J-20 earlier bad enough), while continue to modify and improve her as better domestic engines are available in the future.

Well, the developement history of the F-22 goes like till the YF-22 from 1990.

Only 9 years for the J-20 would be extremly stunning when we also look at the fact that the J-10 went into operational service in 2005 then the jump from the J-10 to the J-20 in just 15 years would make the J-20 developement even more impressive.

 

[Hyperwarp]

The F-22 only took around 8 years from first flight to Introduction. And the J-10 took around 7 years. So... if J-20 achieving initial operational capability in 7-8 years is not that stunning.

It's not out of the question to have a first small batch of J-20 with it's current engines hand over to the PLAAF for thest drive around 2017-2018(maybe not 12, but like 6-10 in a year is not really that big of a challenge if China wants the J-20 earlier bad enough), while continue to modify and improve her as better domestic engines are available in the future.

It goes way further back.

1985: RFP for the 5th gen fighter issued
1986: Lockheed and Northrop selected to develop the YF-22 and YF-23
1990: YF-22 First flight
1997: F-22 First flight
2005: IOC

Lot of lessons were learned from YF-22 and YF-23. F-22 evolved from the YF-22. The F-22 didn't just pop into existence. Most importantly, even way back in 1990 the US had two extremely powerful engine prototypes. YF-22 and YF-23 flew with prototypes of PW

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and GEY120.

When it comes to Russia and T-50, Sukhoi was flying the Su-47 since 1997. That gave them valuable experience and Sukhoi used the Su-47 to test some components targeted for the T-50. Sukhoi's PAK-FA proposal was selected in 2002.

So it is a long road.

 

[taxiya]

Here is a photo of 2015, look at the DSI area, it is of different material or paint from other part of the fuselage. My thought is that, the size and shape of DSI is not changed in 2016, but either a new paint or material or just light condition gives a illusion of geometry change.

 

[JayBird]

Well, the developement history of the F-22 goes like till the YF-22 from 1990.

Only 9 years for the J-20 would be extremly stunning when we also look at the fact that the J-10 went into operational service in 2005 then the jump from the J-10 to the J-20 in just 15 years would make the J-20 developement even more impressive.

Ok, but first flight of F-22 still is 1997 and introduction in 2005. I get the U.S learned a lot from YF-23, but China didn't start developing J-20 after J-10, China was doing research and development of J-20 while it was working on J-10 at the same time. So.. J-20 project also goes way back as well.

I think first flight to IOC for J-20 still very reasonable within 7-8 years time if China goes with mature technologies they've learned from J-10 and J-10B and use the AL-31 variant as the initial stop gap engine. Eveything does not have to be perfect for J-20 right now, China can improve it in the future like J-10 to J-10B, and 052-052C-052D-to future 052E. Maybe we'll see first batch of J-20 with AL-31 variant to J-20B with WS-15 etc....

 

[taxiya]

one thing we must keep reminding ourselves here is that "Chinese do not do things as how Americans do", although Chinese learns from American's experience. China does not have the YF stage where two companies show two physical demonstrators to win the contracts. In China, there is only one company AVIC (or its predecessor "the third machinery ministry", or ultimately the state), there is only competition of design concepts on papers, in wind tunnels etc. It is like two design teams within lockheed competing different configurations of ATF. So my analog applying Chinese model on to U.S. is this, Airforce went to Lockheed and asked it for a fighter, Lockheed gathered people from both within and from Boeing (as it has the mandate of the state) and made many configurations, had many tests and discussions with the airforce, chose the one layout and configuration and go ahead with it, the first airframe is named F-22.

 

[Blitzo]

It goes way further back.

1985: RFP for the 5th gen fighter issued
1986: Lockheed and Northrop selected to develop the YF-22 and YF-23
1990: YF-22 First flight
1997: F-22 First flight
2005: IOC

Lot of lessons were learned from YF-22 and YF-23. F-22 evolved from the YF-22. The F-22 didn't just pop into existence. Most importantly, even way back in 1990 the US had two extremely powerful engine prototypes. YF-22 and YF-23 flew with prototypes of PW

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and GEY120.

When it comes to Russia and T-50, Sukhoi was flying the Su-47 since 1997. That gave them valuable experience and Sukhoi used the Su-47 to test some components targeted for the T-50. Sukhoi's PAK-FA proposal was selected in 2002.

So it is a long road.

But he's not wrong -- it did actually take 8 years from the first flight of F-22 to its introduction... He's not discounting that the ATF programme and the competition between YF-22 and YF-23 didn't possibly assist the actual F-22 programme once it was chosen, but it was still only an 8 year process from F-22 maiden flight to its induction by the USAF.

Frankly we shouldn't use F-22 or ATF as a comparison for J-20. They are being developed by different countries under different security situations with likely different degrees of funding, relative expertise, and different maturity in various subsystems...

 

[AssassinsMace]

Nothing is left to waste... Huitong's says the DSI on the 2016 might house EW antennas. Also engines could be AL-31F-M2s .

 

[latenlazy]

Nothing is left to waste... Huitong's says the DSI on the 2016 might house EW antennas. Also engines could be AL-31F-M2s .

Or he's posting speculation (wouldn't be the first time).
There could be a simple a reason for changing materials over the bump that has nothing to do with EW antennas. RCS.

Every space used for further electronics is not used for fuel, and requires more electricity to boot.

 

[JayBird]

Nothing is left to waste... Huitong's says the DSI on the 2016 might house EW antennas. Also engines could be AL-31F-M2s .

Assuming wikipedia is accurate on engines.

Su-27, Shenyang J-11, Sukhoi Su-30MKK = AL-31F 123 kN Thrust.

J-10= AL-31FN 127 kN Thrust.

J-10B= AL-31FN Series 3 137 kN Thrust.

Su-35= AL-41F1S (117S) 142 kN Thrust.

PAK FA=AL-41F1 (117) 147 kN Thrust.

J-20= AL-31F M2 145 kN Thrust.

It's a nice improvement over AL-31F, But the status for this engine is : In tests. And a little disappointed is not WS-XX if this is true........

 

[latenlazy]

Assuming wikipedia is accurate on engines.

Su-27, Shenyang J-11, Sukhoi Su-30MKK = AL-31F 123 kN Thrust.

J-10= AL-31FN 127 kN Thrust.

J-10B= AL-31FN Series 3 137 kN Thrust.

Su-35= AL-41F1S (117S) 142 kN Thrust.

PAK FA=AL-41F1 (117) 147 kN Thrust.

J-20= AL-31F M2 145 kN Thrust.

It's a nice improvement over AL-31F, But the status for this engine is : In tests. And a little disappointed is not WS-XX if this is true........

The M2 information might be outdated. Also CAC and Salyut have *very* good relations.